جوڑوں کی تھراپی کیوں ناکام ہوتی ہے جب آپ تیار نہ ہوں | Lara Asous, MA, MFT, CCTP

Host

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at ReachLink. My name is Jessica Hurwitz and I manage our network of wonderful therapists. Today we're joined by Lara Soos. She works with Mindful Growth Therapy. Lara, you are based out of Florida in Tampa, is that right? And you offer video counseling as well as in-person, is that right? Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about your practice. It seems like there are so many areas of specialty that you have. Of. So I thought we could talk a little bit about that. I know that you offer services in both English and Arabic, so if you would be willing to share any of that with us, especially how you got into your practice, how all of that started for you. I know I just threw so much at you, so wherever you want to start with sharing with us a little bit about how you got here.

Guest

To be honest, I am not like one of those people that grew up saying, hey, I want to be a therapist. Never played the therapist, psychiatrist as a kid. It just fell in my hands through my life experiences, I guess. Just, I was married, not the best situation. And then I was going, I was attending college as well, working on completely different degree, started taking psychology courses. And then it was just like this huge light bulb, you know, that opens in your head.

Host

I have to ask you, what were you working on before? I always like hearing this story when people say this. Were you doing like something business related?

Guest

Not really. I was kind of working on becoming a teacher. So yeah, so it wasn't like even any, anything planned or anything. I have to just choose an elective and I just chose psychology. And like I said, and it was just like this light bulb that kind of like opened my eyes to everything. And you start seeing things differently and the more you learn about theories and, and, you know, all of those modalities and you're like, oh my God, no wonder why I behave this way or act this way. Right? You start analyzing yourself. So I ended up switching majors to psychology and then I got divorced. So after my divorce, before I wanted to do my master's degree, I really wanted to find something that I'm really passionate about that I feel like I can actually help people. And like you said, I do speak Arabic. So I come from a culture that you really don't get help from anybody outside of your family, right? You don't go see a marriage counselor. You don't have premarital counseling. You don't do any of that, right? You're pretty much, you just get married and you, anything happens, you may go to his family or her family, but you don't seek therapy or counseling. And I felt like that was not good because, you know, I felt like there's so much things in my culture that people rush into marriage that I feel like it really needs to be addressed counseling. So I was like, you know what, maybe my marriage failed, but at least I can help other people with their relationships and with their marriages. And that's how I decided to go into marriage and family therapy.

Host

I love what you're saying about specifically with your culture and what the norm is. I think that, I mean, I know that, and you've probably experienced this so much, how I imagine people are so grateful that you are creating this safe space where it is not the norm to talk about or necessarily have these issues that we're going to acknowledge. I can only imagine with that population how relative that is for people. If I may ask, did you face any type of— was this really accepted amongst people in your life? Was it difficult for anyone to accept that you were going to be asking people talking to people about these issues when it's not necessarily the norm or what's always accepted?

Guest

No, it wasn't really accepted. I think people in my immediate family, therapists, like, why? Out of everything you can be, you're smart. You can be anything you want.

Host

Exactly.

Guest

I'm passionate about it. I love it. Right? I love it. And for me, it's more important to do something that I'm waking up every day excited to do than to do something that I'm like, oh, do I have to do this again today? So I'm very passionate about therapy. I'm very passionate about psychology. I'm very passionate about learning new theories, reading about this, you know, scrolling and understanding this, you know, this, right? Even till this day, my mom is not fully on board about it. And, you know, that's okay. That's, you know, her preference and how, how she, you know, she thinks. But even my ex is like, it's all psychology's fault, right? If you So, so no, it's not something that's very accepted. And I think especially when you're talking about topics like sex or intimacy or things like that, right? It's like, why are you telling a stranger about, you know, about our personal life? So those things are very kind of sensitive, especially if it's going to hit a man's ego or, you know, or a woman's pride or something like that. That becomes something that, yeah, we really don't want to talk about.

Host

Exactly what you just said. I think when you said that in your past relationship, that that was the response. I think that's so common, I would imagine, of, well, it's therapy's fault. And you know, that's not, you know what that is for that person.

Guest

Oh yeah, absolutely. And even now with our clients that we see, they're not just Arab clients, right? They're clients from all over, from different cultures. And a lot of the things that I get from the clients is that, well, my partner is blaming my therapist. I'm like, Okay, that's okay. Let them blame the therapist because when you're with a person and that person starts to evolve and starts to grow and starts to become a better version of themselves and you're stuck where you are, well, I'm gonna blame the therapist for this.

Host

Anyone, especially someone that's, that's helping the other person bring things to light and work on things. That has to be, I think, such, such a huge part, I imagine, of couples and marital work where you've got, you know, the issues people are dealing with and then the egos and the dynamic of a relationship. And I guess you just put aside, you know, you might be the bad guy for someone because you are pushing that resistance that at least one member of the people participating have going on.

Guest

Yeah, exactly. They don't like that. And I, you know, because if you, you know, I don't know how often you experienced it, but a lot of people that are not gonna say a lot of people, but there are clients or couples that come into therapy because one couple has been pushing it. The other one is really not there. They don't care about it. They don't really wanna do it. So it becomes like, okay, I'm here. I don't wanna be here.

Host

So would you say that that's the most common when you have couples come in? Would you say that's typically that one person it was their idea or it was a, this is our last thing that we're trying. This is the only option. Is it often that versus 2 willing participants that, that both really want to be there?

Guest

Yeah, I think it is those 2 options, right? Where either one is like pushing it or it's like, we tried everything. This is our last option. We really need this to work. What I also noticed is that couples will end up like, if they're not ready for counseling, they will leave. Counseling, right? But then after maybe a few months or after a few years, they will come back and they're like, okay, now we're on board. Now we're actually ready to do the work. And those are my favorite couples because when they come back, they're in it for 100% and they're willing to do the work.

Host

I'm sure that first go at it for the person that is not necessarily ready or on board, that's so threatening. I'm sure not, not with bad intent, but If you're not ready, I mean, I've sought out therapy so many times in my life when I wasn't ready. And I knew, you know, after one session or not even making it to the first session, okay, I'm not ready for this. But when there's someone else who, if your relationship depends on it, that is so hard. I know exactly what you mean, that those are the couples when they come back and they've had a chance to, all right, now I'm not on the defense as much. Now we can actually get some work done. And then you're probably not the referee in that situation. You can really help.

Guest

Yeah, exactly. Because now they're kind of like, okay, we're ready to listen to what you're saying and actually do the work.

Host

Where do you usually start then with couples? Do you do your first session with them together? And then do you do any individual work? Or is it mostly together, those sessions together?

Guest

So I do the first session together to kind of hear from both people what they want, what they're looking for, what they're here for. And then I schedule after like either 1 or 2 sessions individually. I also send them assessment that I have them fill out. And it basically just you answer from 1 to 10, or how often is this person, is your partner maybe emotionally available for you, you know, talks about everything from like emotions to intimacy to everything, and then I go, we go over that and that's kind of where we like, okay, well, you guys scored high on this or low on this, and where do you wanna start? And I think sometimes the simplest place to start is communication, right? Because people don't know how to communicate. And if you can't communicate, then the rest of the work isn't really going to work because again, there's no communication.

Host

Do you then work on a lot of communication skills or is it often, well, no, he can't communicate. No, she can't communicate. No, she's the problem.

Guest

Yes, you get that a lot, right? The blame game. But that's when you're like, yeah, you know, I try to explain it gently in a way where most people don't know how to communicate. Chances are it's because they're never taught to communicate. Yeah, so because we're never really taught to communicate, so it's not a you or a him or a she or whoever, you know, game. It's just that we both of you need to read it too, you know, and sometimes you just have to say, well, let's reteach ourselves because, you know, when we have been together for such a long time, I'm sure you've gotten in a pattern of the blame game or arguing or something, and you probably forgot how to listen and respond. So let's do that and, you know, reteach ourselves.

Host

When you are working with a couple, I find such a divide sometimes with therapists in terms of whether they are okay or in support of people doing individual counseling while they're in couples counseling. Do you have a certain stance on that or do you take it depending on the particular couple?

Guest

So I am okay with them, you know, if they're doing individual therapy, the same as with counseling, as long as I'm not the one doing both, because I feel like that's too much. If they start with couples therapy, and then I feel like, okay, I think right now you guys probably need to do individual therapy first, and then you can come back to couples. So I'm also, you know, if I feel like they need it, I will refer them or recommend them to individual, and then they can come back and do couples.

Host

I think that sounds like it makes the most sense that you probably are assessing all these things and you notice something glaringly obvious sometimes, maybe that someone really needs to work on before they can be in a place to do the couples work.

Guest

Yeah, exactly. Like you said, you were in therapy. I also went to therapy after my divorce, and I think we don't really understand or we don't really notice how much pain we have and how much healing we have to do because we're more in that survival mode day by day. And we think we're functioning normally, but we really are not. So sometimes we really have to focus on ourselves and take a deeper look at ourselves.

Host

And that moment that you find out, I think, that you in fact are not functioning properly or in a healthy way, that is really awful for some people. I mean, that's a huge, like, oh my gosh, wait a second. I thought I really was dealing with this the right way. I'm absolutely not. That's so hard to take, I imagine, for people.

Guest

Exactly. Exactly. You're like, oh, that's where all the anger is coming from. I didn't know why I'm so angry.

Host

Now it makes much more sense why something is coming up in such a way. Do you have like partners or agencies, people in your practice that you work with?

Guest

So in my practice, it's just me, but I, I try to refer people out. Like I, I know few therapists and I know a few agencies that I can refer to. It depends on if it's also insurance or self-pay. So I do take that in consideration and try to find someone that willing to accept their insurance.

Host

Well, I was noticing on your website, which I love, your website is so informative and I'm gonna make sure that when we post this podcast that I link your website so everyone knows how to find you. Of course. Yes. I noticed that when I was looking at the insurance and payment section and sliding scale options. You have mentioned that you do some work, I think, with cancer survivors and their families. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that?

Guest

Yeah. So one of the things is because a lot of very close people to me unfortunately had been diagnosed with cancer. So I'm very passionate about it. And I know that when you're in that situation, there's not a lot that people can say or do that can make you feel better. But it's my way of helping their pain a little bit. Their mental health is important when you're given that shocking diagnosis, right? It's scary. And it's important for them, especially after they've been cured and they're in remission, to really now work on healing it because it, in a way, does become like trauma. You can't forget their families and how they respond to it. If it's their loved one, it's their dad, it's their mom, if it's their son or their daughter, right? Whoever it is, it impacts everyone. And Cancer treatment, regardless if you have insurance or not, is extremely expensive. So the last thing people are gonna worry about is paying money for a therapist. So if I can ease that and make that less dreadful, because it's very important to get the help, it's something that I would love to do.

Host

I don't wanna say good deed cuz it's so much more than that, but I hate to say, you know, you see so much now in the media of so much attention being brought to celebrities that are dealing with illnesses or have passed from any— something cancer, cancer-related. It seems like it's out there so much more, and honestly, in the past couple weeks. And I just wondering if maybe people are seeking more support at all. It just seems like it's all coming out publicly so much lately, and I wonder if that's had impact on your practice, if you've noticed more people reaching out for that kind of support that they don't necessarily think of because they're thinking about all these astronomical medical bills that they have and their mental health is not necessarily what they're thinking of as much. I hope that at least has brought that need to the forefront.

Guest

Like you said, I don't think people think about it in the beginning, but once they know it's there, I think they do seek it. Like once they have a few moments to process things and calm down, they do seek it. And I do also offer support groups for caregivers as well.

Host

How do those support groups work for the families and the caregivers? Is the client themselves included in that? Is it separate? What's the dynamic?

Guest

So it's mostly for caregivers because caregivers are really what hold everybody together in that situation. And a lot of times caregivers tend to forget about themselves and lose themselves. Which is, you know, noble of them because there's no other option. But at the same time, they also disregard their own emotions and their own fears and their own mental health taking care of somebody. And they don't always know that there's other people that are going through what they're going through. And if there's a safe space for them to just let it all out, talk about it, talk about the good, the bad, how they truly feel, all of that without any judgment. It's their own little space with other caregivers that have been in that position or still are in this position, just sharing their experiences and their thoughts on it.

Host

If you care deeply about mental health, whether as a therapist or someone seeking support, this message is for you. If you're a therapist listening and you're looking for more flexibility, more balance, or a way to expand your impact, ReachLink is growing. We've been building a community of thoughtful, dedicated clinicians who want to make care more accessible through telehealth without losing the human connection that matters most. With ReachLink, you can work from anywhere, set a schedule that fits your life, and let us handle the administrative work so you can focus on what you came to do— help your clients. And if you're looking for support, at ReachLink, we believe mental health care should meet you where you are, in how you feel and in how you live. Whether you're navigating stress, burnout, relationships, or major life changes, you don't have to go through it alone. With the ReachLink app, you can connect with licensed, experienced therapists through secure, convenient telehealth sessions from your space on your time. No commute, no waiting rooms, just real support when you need it. So whether you're ready to start therapy or ready to offer it, ReachLink is here. Download the app or learn more at reachlink.com. Because better mental health should always be within reach. You know, when I was going through your website, I kept thinking, oh my gosh, and she does this and she does this and she does this. I think so many times we see therapists that list this plethora, this like exhaustive list of specialties that they have, but it seems like you really have these individual like niche for when you're speaking about these specialties that you work with, you really have delved into, it seems like, your education and the theories and the modalities that are involved. It's really impressive because it's so easy, I think, for therapists to say, I work with all these things. And then when it comes down to it, it might not be suited for something so specific. But just hearing you talk about the support groups and the dynamic with couples, it seems like you really just have such in-depth training for what you're working with?

Guest

When I kind of chose what specialties I wanted to work with, not just that I learned in school, but also that have meaning or some story in my life, right? Narcissistic abuse, trauma, I can relate to that on a personal level. The same thing with the cancer, marriage, divorce, all of those things, finding yourself. When we've been in a toxic relationship, we tend to lose sense about who we are, rebuilding ourselves. So when I'm working with clients, it's not because I just, oh, I think trauma is cool, by the way. It's because I actually do understand the impact that it has on a person.

Host

I think that no matter how much we say that you don't get into counseling just because you went through something, there's such a good combination of that, I think, that you exhibit that it's not like you just went through something and you've decided you're going to help other people who have gone through that. It seems like you have a much more broad, like, yeah, maybe that is what got you interested and what helped you feel like, you know what, I think I might really be able to connect with this population or someone who's going through this. But it seems like you have not put yourself in a bubble of this is exactly what I went through, so this is what I can address. It seems like you really took that, those specialties and broadened them to fit things that everyone's going through.

Guest

Yeah, because I feel like everybody's story is different and everybody's experience is different, right? And how we process things, how we handle situations is different. So for me to have a client and tell them, okay, this is what I did from A to Z, and I expect you to do the same exact thing, that is really not fair and unethical at the same time, but also not fair to the client because they're completely different from me. So it's not about, we go through our own stuff, yes, We handle things differently, yes, but we can't expect our clients or even our partners or our friends to handle things the same way we do because we are all different. And I think that's one of the things that I always address with couples as well, especially couples that have trauma, right? One couple may say, but I had trauma and I excelled and I did this, and the other person may become more prone to addiction or something like that. Okay, and you explain to them that people handle trauma differently. This is how you processed it. This is how your body processed it, the fright and the flight freeze part of it and the trauma response part of it. And once you explain it to them and you see how that's broken down and you see how those patterns are impacted, they'll be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. You know, I shouldn't have expected you to deal with things the same way that I dealt with it.

Host

Well, it sounds like you were definitely creating a very safe environment for people because I, I think a lot of the stories that I hear about people in couples counseling or something like that, it's not often they even necessarily get to the point of the therapist being able to go there because it probably takes all the counseling to even get to a place where you can point out and for people to say, oh, you're right. I get that now.

Guest

Yeah. And that's what I said. Like, it depends on how ready the couple is, right? That's why sometimes if they're not ready, It's really much more better to say, maybe go try, you know, individual counseling first, because when they're dealing with their own individual stuff, then they'll be more able to understand where their partner is coming from.

Host

Are there a lot of couples that go for individual counseling and you don't hear from them again? You don't see them again. Do you wonder, oh gosh, I'm so curious what came for them?

Guest

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because you're always gonna meet people, especially people with interesting relationship dynamics or interesting couples. And you're like, oh, well, I, you know, I wish I had the chance to work with them more. I wonder what happened to them. And then honestly, there are some people after years that will get back to you and they're like, oh, okay, we're ready now. So it really depends. But yes, I think we all have those interesting, if it's couples or even if it's just individual clients that we wonder what happened to them.

Host

Yeah. And that's so nice though, that you're having people that come back. After all this time and have thought of you as obviously a safety, some, someone that they can potentially work with again, that they can open up to and, and you are still there for them.

Guest

Yeah, that's one of the things I really appreciate. It's one of those times where if you reflect on your work and you're like, okay, maybe I am doing a good job because as therapists, we tend to always doubt ourselves, right? Or some of us deal at times with imposter syndrome or something like that. But one of, it's one of those days where you hear back from a client or get feedback from a parent or something like that, and you're like, oh, okay, then I think I, I'm good. As therapists, a lot of times we're not expected to be humans. I don't know if you like experience that or not, but it's, it's like you're not supposed to have your own emotions. You're not supposed to have your bad days. You're not supposed to react even with your kids, right? Or with anybody. If you react in like, if you are having a bad day and you end up yelling or something, but you're supposed to be a therapist. We're humans, you know.

Host

Every second of the day you're supposed to be a therapist, even when you're sleeping. Yeah.

Guest

You know, be, yes, I am a therapist and I try to be a therapist as much as I can, but we're also humans. We have days where we just need to be a human. Right.

Host

Absolutely. Do you do a lot of work? You mentioned sometimes if you hear feedback from parents, do you do work with families and kids as well?

Guest

I do, yes. I do some school counseling for school students who just having issues with transportation and can't go to therapy. So we come to the school and see them. You get a lot from their parents. You hear out that feedback, especially if they were having anger issues and now they know how to calm down. They're like, oh, I noticed that when they did this, they were not angry this time. And then you're like, okay, that's great. That's good to hear. You know, it makes you kind of feel like, okay, I'm proud of what I'm doing.

Host

I think that's probably such a good or common time to get feedback from parents when they feel like they've tried everything and nothing's working and you have to fix everything as the therapist. You've gotta fix it all. You're their only hope. And then something clicks.

Guest

And it's that moment when it clicks that everything just like adds up and you're happy for them because the parents are like, oh my God, I finally can breathe a little bit.

Host

And then they maybe will learn some of the skills, something that, that you've worked on with their kids. Is there a certain age of students that you work mostly with?

Guest

Elementary school. So I would say from kindergarten up to maybe 5th grade.

Host

So that's such a big span of, I'm just thinking of those ages. That's so much development. That's so different. What's your favorite age to work with, would you say?

Guest

I would say I like the kids that are between 9 to 11, 12 years old, like right before that preteen. Or the teenage years, those kids are so honest, and they're so open. And you can tell if they like you or not. Because if they like you, they're going to want to come and see you. And they're going to spend their session to extend. And if they don't like you, they're going to make up excuses to not see you. So they're, they're pretty much my favorite, because you know that they don't lie.

Host

Such a hard age. I mean, just thinking, thinking of my own childhood. That's Such a hard age. I'm sure not for everyone, but the issues that come up in that period that you're exactly right. What you're saying makes so much sense that that's when I imagine are either going to grab onto someone who's trusted or totally push them away. And I could see you very much being someone that people are going to gravitate to and people are going to think this is someone I can really, I can really talk to that's not my parent. That might be able to help me.

Guest

Well, I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. But I do agree. When I think back about when I was in elementary school, life was so much more simpler, right? I feel like I didn't deal with half of the stuff that these kids are going through. The bullying. I mean, yes, we did. There was bullying, but I feel like it didn't start till, till you were in like middle or high school. But now they're dealing with it in elementary school. Conversations about sex and all of these inappropriate things because now everyone has access access to the internet and YouTube and all these games that they're playing. So they've in a way lost their childhood and their innocence, and they're forced to grow up way beyond their years. And not to mention the things that they have going on at home with their parents and with their families and all of that. So it is definitely hard being a kid right now than it was.

Host

You're definitely right. And I'm thinking about how hard I thought it was then, but I mean, Everything was so hard then. Waking up in the morning and existing was hard then. I had braces. Nothing was—

Guest

nothing was good. Yeah.

Host

But just thinking now how much younger all of that starts is so unsettling to think about what these innocent kids are even having to think about that we didn't have to know existed. So, Lara, I know that something else that you do a lot of work with is trauma and PTSD. Tell us a little bit about that. How do you see that come out in your work? Do you have a large clientele that comes to see you with PTSD and trauma issues?

Guest

Yes, because I think even though most people aren't aware of it, there is some type of trauma. If it's big trauma or little trauma, right? There's something. And I think when we don't realize how much trauma impacts us as humans, right? Because again, like we talked about in the beginning, it becomes our normal. So that's how we survive. We are either in survivor mode or we're just kind of thinking that this is how everybody in life functions and survives. But the reality is it's different. Trauma impacts everything. Trauma impacts your health, your body. One of the greatest books out there is The Body Keeps the Score, and it really talks about how trauma is stored in our bodies and how it can cause many different illnesses for us because we're unaware, you know, it doesn't have a place to go out where it just gets stuck in our bodies. I remember after my divorce and the trauma that I had experienced with my marriage, I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And that's how actually I got into therapists because into therapy, because my doctor recommended go talk to somebody, you know, like you, you need to go talk to somebody because a part of fibromyalgia is that it can be caused by trauma. So I did talk to a therapist and I started realizing how much trauma I had in my body stored from years and years. And I'm not just talking about with, through my marriage, but from childhood, like even if you've had a wonderful childhood and then I had a pretty amazing childhood, but there are still some things that maybe triggered you or hurt you that you were not even aware of it. You know, I had the best dad in the world and I grew up thinking, you know, I had a wonderful childhood, a happy childhood, right? And to them, right, for the most part it was. But there are certain things, you know, that, that you don't realize that may have hurt you. Maybe a word that was said to you, or maybe a comment that was said, or an experience that may have seemed normal, but it was not really normal. So you grow up with all of these things and trauma work is so important. And that's one of the reasons why I actually do EMDR because EMDR really helps. You know, a lot of people are like, I just need help with my trauma, right? I wanna heal. And EMDR is a great way. Of course, you have to give them the warning. It is very intense, right? And you have to be cautious with it, but it's one of the best ways or not the best ways. I mean, again, it depends on everybody, but it's one of the really good ways to help with your trauma. So I do think, I think trauma is important because if you look at trauma and your attachment styles, it will impact your relationship with your kids. It's going to impact your relationship with your partners, the partners that you choose. And I feel like people aren't, don't even understand that you can love someone, but the partner that you choose to be with is going to be more impacted by your trauma than it is by your heart. It's going to be attracted more to the normal of the life that you had rather than the abnormal, I guess, is what we can call it. So yes, trauma is definitely important and it's— the work needs to be done.

Host

Do a lot of people come, would you say, to your practice to see you and they're coming to see you for something totally different and I guess very easily, I would imagine trauma stuff comes up. Is it very frequent that you find your cases pivoting toward, oh, this is some heavy trauma, we've got to address this? Or do you find that typically people come saying, I've got trauma, I need to address it? Or do you help people uncover that a little more?

Guest

I feel like people already know they have trauma, they just don't know what it is or they can't exactly figure it out. And that's where we kind of address it and, you know, go really do deep the work so they can unlock that key of where did it happen, what happened, all of that. Because our brains does tend to block stuff, right? We have gap memories. It tries to protect us. That's the way the brain protects us. So we can feel like there's something there, but we really can't tell what it is or know what it is. They already feel it. They just don't know what it is or they can't really put it into words.

Host

So how do you, if someone's coming to you and they like, they know they've got trauma, you can tell maybe they've got trauma, do you like start at the beginning? Do you kind of start at the beginning of their childhood and wait for something to come up? Or I guess with EMDR, that's once you've identified what the trauma is. So how do you, I guess it's always different.

Guest

For EMDR, the client would already know the trauma that they want to work on. Right? So they already have that in mind and they know like, hey, I wanna work on this specific traumatic moment. For others, it's like you said, you have to start from the beginning. You have to really do that inner work. One of the best ways is to use Murray Bowen's Genograms, right? It breaks down everything, right? It shows you your entire life, your ancestors, you know, it can go back generations. And through that, you'll be able to kind of understand your patterns, even if you can't like exactly figure it out, but you'll be able to see, okay, this may have impacted me, or no wonder why I choose this type of man or this type of woman, why I have addictive patterns or whatever, right? Why I drink a lot, or, you know, all of that, things start to unfold. And then you'll be able to figure it out.

Host

That's such— I'm so glad that you brought that up. I am such a lover of genograms.

Guest

I love that too, learning about them.

Host

And I was like, oh my God, it is a family tree, but for therapy.

Guest

It's so cool, right? Yeah.

Host

Would you, would you be willing to come on here again and do like a deep dive to GinaGrams?

Guest

Oh, absolutely.

Host

Would you do that? I think that would be so fun.

Guest

I love that. Yeah.

Host

Oh, good. Okay, Lara, thank you so, so much for joining me. This was honestly so much fun. I know that's probably not the word I'm supposed to use, but it was. You're wonderful. I'm gonna make sure that we link your website as well as Because there was at least one book that you mentioned that I want to include that I want to get. So I have a feeling people listening are probably going to want to get. I'm going to link your website so people know how to find you and everyone will be excited, me especially, to have you back so we can deep dive the Genograms.

Guest

Yeah, I would love that. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate your, your time.

Host

We will be connecting again very soon, so I'll be bothering you.

Guest

I look forward to that.

Host

Thank you so much, Lara. Talk to you soon.

Guest

Bye.