وہ یوگا آسن جو اس صدمے تک رسائی دے سکتا ہے جہاں آپ کے الفاظ نہیں پہنچ پاتے | Chris McDonald, LCMHCS, RYT

Host

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at ReachLink. I am Jessica Hurwitz. I'm your host. I am very excited today to be joined by Kris McDonald. Kris is an LCMH clinical supervisor as well as an RYT registered yoga therapist, and I'm very excited to talk to her about how those have intertwined through her career. Kris, thank you so much for being here. Tell us, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Guest

Thanks for having me.

Host

Absolutely.

Guest

Yeah. So my journey started actually in the school system. I was a school counselor for 16 years and then I got really tired of that and I did get my licensure and went on to community mental health. And what I found over the years was that traditional talk therapy, I'm talking like CBT and I'm very person-centered, but it only gets so far is what I found over the years. So that's kind of been my journey is I started with meditation and then did some breathwork, did some trainings and practices and used it with students in the school system. And then I started in community mental health and then my own private practice. And I found that that's the game changer. Once we can move to using the body more in therapy, it makes such a difference and clients are able to progress more. And then I moved on to yoga certification in 2019. I'm certified in what's called subtle yoga and grief yoga as well.

Host

So what was the, what was the first one?

Guest

Subtle.

Host

Subtle yoga?

Guest

Yes.

Host

Tell us, tell us about those. I don't know subtle yoga.

Guest

That's okay. So it's more using the subtle body. It's more about slow, mindful movement, which really resonated with me because I did find that, and anybody watching or listening has probably tried a yoga class that was just like, oh my God, this is so hard. I can't do yoga. That's how I found yoga. At times it was very difficult. I have back pain and back issues and it hurt me and I'm like, oh yeah. But once I found slow mindful movement, I was like, oh, this is me. I can do this. And what it's all about too, it's not just fitness, right? What I'm talking about, yoga and therapy, it's more about bringing in nervous system regulation. call it nervous system yoga because what we're trying to do is to help teach these skills to clients in session so that they can become lifelong skills for them outside of session. And they are better able to change their nervous system state through yoga practice. And with slow mindful move, it can be movement, breath, meditation, all the different limbs of yoga are integrated into that. So that's part of subtle yoga.

Host

I'm so glad that you shared about what your experience was when you first Got into yoga, because when I first did, I remember thinking, this is going to be my thing. You know, I'm over Pilates. I want to try yoga. I don't want to do those Pilates 100s anymore. But I tried a yoga class, and I didn't know at that time, you know, I knew they had different names. I knew there were different types of yoga, but I didn't really know. So I kept saying, all right, this is hard, all these modifications. everything, but I just didn't understand why I didn't like it until I went to a yin yoga class and I realized that happened to be what I enjoyed. So I'm glad that you shared that.

Guest

Yeah.

Host

That, that was your experience as well, that you had to really find what worked. I want to back up a tiny bit and ask you a little more, if you don't mind, about what point it was exactly that got you To transition to really incorporating all of this into your practice? Were you— I know you were starting in the school. I was doing school counseling. How did you start incorporating that into with those clients?

Guest

Yeah, a long time ago as a school counselor. Um, I actually went to a teacher training because when you're an educator and in the system, you know, you still have to go to different trainings and things as a quote-unquote educator teacher. And one thing I learned was mindfulness at that time. And this was probably like 2004, 2005. What is this? This is amazing. So I actually went back and started to use some of that and some breathwork too, because what I found was in the school system, you'll get kids that keep coming back to you over and over and over. It's like, there's something not adding up here. They're not getting more of what they need. And once I was able to teach them some mindfulness, some breathwork practice, Something kind of clicked, and I saw that kids were able to make more progress even with briefs. We do more brief solutions in school, but they were able to make that progress, whether that's just helping them with test anxiety, separation anxiety. I worked in elementary at the time, and, and it was just amazing to see that transformation. And I did my own personal practice, which I think is part of this journey too, is we have to do these practices outside of session and be able to embody them. Into fully before we bring it into a session, if that makes sense.

Host

Absolutely.

Guest

Well, yes, I was doing the— my breathwork, and this was before the internet and all the stuff that's out there now, and I had to get books before— learn how to meditate and read about meditation before there were apps. And I did all this research on my own, learned a lot of Buddhism and Buddhist practice, and kind of just melded these all together, and that's kind of what I offer now.

Host

I love that. So you, I think what I was going to ask was about the age that you started with. You said it was elementary?

Guest

Yeah, elementary I did. Yeah. And then I went to high school and then when I did community mental health, so I started with adults and I still worked with some teenagers at the time too. So.

Host

And then, so after you left working in the school system, what did that look like for you? So you had gotten your, you had gotten your degree and gotten licensed.

Guest

Yes.

Host

In, in mental health counseling and then worked in the school system. What came next after, cuz I know you're a licensed supervisor.

Guest

I did intensive in-home and outpatient therapy at an agency while I was building my private practice. And, and then 2015, I got my first space and got my private practice going from there. So.

Host

Oh, wow. So now in your private practice, you've been incorporating a ton of this.

Guest

Yeah. And another piece of this too, I just wanna mention too, is that I've also helped therapists do what I do. So be able to—

Host

Oh, tell me more about that.

Guest

To bring these practices in an ethical and safe way. 'Cause a lot of therapists are becoming more interested, which is beautiful. I feel like the counseling world is changing. It's shifting to more somatic, right? It's body-based focus because it's an important part, especially with trauma. We can't just, rely on cognitive strategies or in the relationship. There's gotta be more. There's gotta be a step more because that's how we go deeper is we have to bring the body into sessions. Over time, um, I had a podcast called Yoga in the Therapy Room and I had listeners that would say, how can I do what you do? And so I really wanted to put some information out there for them. And so that's kind of how I got into doing some trainings and I also offer yoga and therapy consultations for therapists too. So that's been really fun. I really enjoy doing that. But the questions that people have is like, how do I do this in a safe way? And before, back up the truck, can I do this?

Host

Glad people are asking that.

Guest

Yes. Can I do this right as a therapist and how do I do it ethically? So those were the main questions that people have when doing this, cuz as therapists, I'm aging myself. I, I got my, graduate degree in 1995, but we didn't have anything much about holistic or doing the— bringing the body in therapy. It wasn't even talked about or thought of. It's all the traditional, which is fine. It has its place, right? It's the foundation. But many people need something more. And the people that come to me in my practice, they have done traditional therapy and they're like, something's missing.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Guest

I'm not getting the results I want. There's gotta be something more. And that's why I kind of promote myself too, as not your typical psychotherapist. I'm more holistic and bring in more of the body and other practices that are considered more alternative.

Host

Chris, when you had, when you started to get people asking you, I wanna do this as a practitioner.

Guest

Yeah.

Host

What do I need to do? How can I do this ethically? Where are these typically mental health counselors or where, what are you advising them? Where does that look like for them from that point?

Guest

Yeah. Well, just to back up for a minute.

Host

Sure, please.

Guest

So before the— before I had rebranded to Yoga in the Therapy Room, and the reason I did rebrand it from the Holistic Counseling Podcast was the original podcast I had, um, I rebranded because that's what everybody kept asking about yoga. Tell me more about yoga in the therapy room over and over. So I was like, this has to, you know, really trying to get that out there. But, but how do I help them? Is that your question?

Host

Yeah, yeah. When, when they come to you saying, okay, I want to do this, what What does that guidance look like?

Guest

Yeah. And I think initially it starts with, too, starting their own practice before they even think about bringing it in their therapy room. They have to embody, they have to feel these practices inside of them and what that's like. Because I think in order to be ethical, I think we have to experience these practices on our own. And I don't want to teach clients anything that I'm not already doing or willing to do or have done in the past. So. That's kind of how I stay in alignment with what I offer too. So, of course, being able to do these practices on a regular basis too. It's not like, oh, I went to one yoga class. I'm good. I can be okay.

Host

And then someone will spot that, you know, in a sense.

Guest

They know some—

Host

yeah, they'll be able to tell.

Guest

Yeah. Um, but that's usually the first part too, but also learning about the differences between traditional yoga class. Versus yoga and therapy, what does that look like? So I talk a lot about that, how, you know, a yoga class is structured, it's for everyone, it's, it's not individualized. And yoga and therapy is going to be more individualized based on client need, client consent. They can opt out at any time. It's really part of their treatment plan, their goals, all of that. It's all aligned with counseling theory. So there's, there's a lot to it.

Host

So not in the way where they would hand me an extra bolster or a blanket or a yoga block, not that type of individualized. We're talking really, really the whole.

Guest

Yes. And again, it's part— it's integrated part of a therapy session. So it's not a 53-minute yoga class because that would be yoga class. That wouldn't be therapy. So it could be one yoga pose or It could be like somebody I saw this morning. So we did a short flow because this was someone that can't slow down and is just so tense, and which I think a lot of people can relate to that on the go and overwhelmed. And so this gives them a chance to practice some of these skills with me, and then I assign that for homework.

Host

That was such a good example because I was trying to think of what some examples would be of this, because when I first, you know, read about you, this is not exactly what I thought. So this— I don't know what I thought, but this is That's so cool. I love that, that it's really in an integration of perhaps poses or, or modalities. What's an example similar to doing a flow with someone who's unable to slow down? What are some other examples of something someone could present with in that way? And would it be a specific pose or type of therapy that you would try to work in?

Guest

And again, it depends on what the issue is. So, so I also integrate part of what qigong was, part of what I learned in subtle yoga, and I've gone on to study that as well. So it's doing a slow, mindful movement. So if we inhale arms up and we just do a normal pace, right? You can do it with me. Thank you so much.

Host

I wanted to so badly, and then I didn't know if I'd knock something over.

Guest

Inhale arms up. Exhale. So we're going not a fast pace, but we're just, you know, inhaling arm up. But if you have someone that you want to slow down with, so see how slow you can go as you bring the arms down. Notice that urge to go faster.

Host

How did you know my arms were disappearing beyond the camera? How could you tell?

Guest

And, and then going back to inhale is how slow can we go? I often say too slower than you want to go. But part of that is that attunement with our clients and really noticing what's coming up with them. And, and we do that naturally as therapists. We already have these skills too, by the way. All of us have these as clinicians. But if you notice a client with their shoulders up to their ears, which we've all seen that, sitting on the edge of the seat with their hands clasped, that's gonna give you some ideas of what's going on with them before they even open their mouth.

Host

Especially in a therapy session. I'm thinking back to any therapy where, where I've had the client think thinking, oh gosh, you know, I've probably sat on the edge. I've always gone like this, you know, probably in my sleep. That's, that's so cool that you're bringing that to light.

Guest

So let's say our shoulders are up to here, or your feet, or they're just— they come in session like this. I have people like this too. My life hand is— so we just name it. I notice your hand is on your shoulder. Tell me what's going on there, and what would it be like to Bring the shoulders up and back and do some shoulder rolls. So just notice what comes up as you do this. And what we're doing as part of this too is interoception, which is noticing what's going on inside the body. Like an example, like if we're hungry, our stomach's going to growl. So then we're going to get something to eat, hopefully, to take care of that. But a lot of times people disconnect from the body and they live from shoulders up. Overthinkers and they don't really know what's happening and don't get the signals for emotion as well, cuz emotion lives in the body, especially those that we haven't processed or dealt with. So this whole process helps them to really connect back. And you asked about other presentations too. Yeah. So like depression, so we can bring more energizing practices into, so there's a lot of different ways to do that with some tapping practice or—

Host

Really?

Guest

Sometimes we might bring a little bit more movement, stand up, standing poses, or there's just a lot of different ways we can bring that in.

Host

If you care deeply about mental health, whether as a therapist or someone seeking support, this message is for you. If you're a therapist listening and you're looking for more flexibility, more balance, or a way to expand your impact, REACHLINK is growing. We've been building a community of thoughtful, dedicated clinicians who want to make care more accessible through telehealth without losing the human connection that matters most. With ReachLink, you can work from anywhere, set a schedule that fits your life, and let us handle the administrative work so you can focus on what you came to do— help your clients. And if you're looking for support, at ReachLink, we believe mental health care should meet you where you are, in how you feel and in how you live. Whether you're navigating stress, burnout, relationships, or major life changes, you don't have to go through it alone. With the ReachLink app, you can connect with licensed, experienced therapists through secure, convenient telehealth sessions from your space on your time. No commute, no waiting rooms, just real support when you need it. So whether you're ready to start therapy or ready to offer it, ReachLink is here. Download the app or learn more at reachlink.com because better mental health should always be within reach. This is really fun. I'm gonna put you on the spot. I'm so sorry.

Guest

You're fine.

Host

This is so interesting. What's something else?

Guest

Like if, if something— anxiety or—

Host

yeah. If you, as many as you're interested or open to sharing, this really is so cool.

Guest

Um, so let's say, and I know we did, it was a little bit with anxiety. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of people hold tension in their shoulders, right? So of course, doing a shoulder roll can be a very simple, easy way. And a lot of times, you mentioned too, just going back to your other question, how do I help therapists? A lot of times we'll do chair yoga, which we're doing right now, because you're in the chair, they're in the chair already, so we don't even have to stand up. And by the way, you don't need a yoga mat for yoga in therapy. So we can just—

Host

Love that.

Guest

Start in the chair. Yeah. And if we think about anxiety from a nervous system regulation Sometimes it's restlessness. If you have clients that can't sit still and they're just like, oh my gosh, I have this presentation today, I'm so nervous. And then sometimes we do need to stand up, right?

Host

Yes.

Guest

And one thing we might do is just start shaking. I invite them to shake their arms. You can raise 'em up, right? Shake the shoulders and just go through the shaking motion too, to help release some of that. But then the second part of that emotion regulation is to bring some calm after. So maybe some slow breathing, or we may do some self-soothing, even place the hands on the chest to breathe, which can help bring that emotional regulation.

Host

So, you know, what's so interesting to me, when we, right before we started recording, we, you and I were talking a little bit about how this podcast has been, and I was sharing with you how it had previously been a lot of kind of education providers, therapists coming on, educating a little bit. And I made the joke that—

Guest

That is boring.

Host

I forgot about— no, no, no, no, no, no. This is so great. And I made the joke about, oh gosh, I, you know, I can't ask about EMDR anymore times because I don't know enough about it. You know, now I do from having guests on.

Guest

Yes.

Host

But I didn't know the questions to ask. And we were joking about that. And it's just so interesting now that everything that you're sharing keeps leading me back to, oh, like trauma. And so it sort of is kind of full circle that, you know, I know this isn't EMDR, but this is combination of therapy and yoga that I would imagine significantly can help with trauma.

Guest

I imagine. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that's why I teach it all from trauma-informed lens too. So it's invitational. So I invite you to Bring your hands to your chest and breathe, you know, whatever it might be. It's an invitational and they're welcome to opt out at any time. I let them know that. And also, especially if they have a lot of trauma and they're in that hypervigilance too, we're only going to be doing this for about 5 minutes. So letting them know ahead of time, because, you know, if you do something new, especially with your therapist, it can feel awkward and weird and might be like, how long is this going to last? And they may get more anxious.

Host

And then you're not paying attention whatsoever to—

Guest

They're like, wait, what do I do?

Host

Right. Like, wait a second, we're gonna be doing this for 53 minutes. Oh God.

Guest

Exactly. So that can kind of help to bring a little bit more ease, but we always respect the client's autonomy. And, and I have people who regularly do some practices with me and they'll be like, I'm so tired. I don't wanna do anything moving. I'm like, that's your choice. It's okay. We don't have to.

Host

With your intake process then, Chris, is it, does that give you a lot of insight to what How you're going to incorporate yoga and movement into this person's care? Or do you kind of wait? Because I know sometimes intake and then what the client says is not always the same thing.

Guest

No, no, exactly. And sometimes people end up— I feel like it's a process of discovery. Like, it just made me think, and I live in North Carolina and we have the mountains out here, so you can go like gem mining. So sometimes I feel like we're trying to dig through with clients, we're sifting, like, what are we gonna find? Absolutely.

Host

No, that's a perfect— There's a gem that we need to go through. Yeah, no, that's perfect. You gotta start using that. That's really good. I know.

Guest

I just thought of it.

Host

That's really good.

Guest

Sift and sift. I love that. Yeah, but we never know. So I, as a therapist in private practice, I take 3 sessions to really do a full assessment cuz I think we cannot do this in 1 hour.

Host

Yep, absolutely.

Guest

And it's evolving. And of course it's longer than that too, because we'll still learn things about our clients. But I think to really get clear on goals, where are we going? Of course we'll have initial goals. We have to if we use insurance. But, you know, to really dig deep in this process too, I think we have to go into that. And I don't automatically just think in like, okay, what are we going to do? No, because we have to really get the background. We really have to build that attunement with our client and then kind of see where the goals— and then once we have the goals, then maybe that we can figure out, okay, what are some ways that we can, you know, integrate? But it's also intuitive too in sessions because. Um, I may have learned a new practice, but it may not be appropriate for certain clients or their issues. So it's not, I'm not gonna bring that in. I'll, I'll only bring that in if it's appropriate for what they're going through. And I have a lot, just by the way, I have a lot of women in midlife with ADHD and anxiety. A lot of what I can bring in too applies to a lot of them cuz a lot of them are, are similar. They're people pleasers. They struggle to take care of themselves. Always taking care of others. And so this gives them also another way to help take care of themselves.

Host

And that also really, I think, points out or points to a lot of the community of therapists themselves. Not saying that every, every female therapist has ADHD, some of us, but that chances are, are struggling with especially what you said about, about taking care of others. Tell me a little bit more about, I know you, when you mentioned the 2 kind of forms. the trauma part of that. Is there a point where you're working with trauma with someone and things kind of escalate? I feel like this would be something that your people that are seeking supervision or, or that kind of thing from you might, might worry about. Okay, this person has this trauma and I'm helping them in this way. What do I do if they— things really intensify?

Guest

So like if they're like emotionally flooded or—

Host

Sure.

Guest

Yeah.

Host

Yeah.

Guest

Yeah, for sure. And of course that's a very common fear too, Especially for newbies, because I am a clinical supervisor, so I do hear that a lot, and, and with other therapists that I work with. But what I've found in my experience is that we don't want to push too much too soon with trauma. We do have to create safety and create that safe container. And I find that if you're able to do that and pace yourself and titrate and going back to safety, and if we go into the trauma, Always coming back to safety and helping equip the clients with the coping skills. And by the way, I don't jump into trauma work with anyone. We're going to build up to that. It's a slow process. And especially if there's more complex trauma and it's more challenging, then we're going to take our time and trying to see pace with them too, to notice how is this landing for them. So I think over time, therapists do build that skill too, to notice What they're witnessing, what they're feeling in their body, that countertransference and limbic systems that coordinate can feel like, oh, I feel heightened. My client must be heightened right now too. So really tuning into ourselves too. That's why interoception is so important for us too, to notice what's going on in our bodies. And, but if it does get too much, like your question, but being able to breathe with the client, be able to put these skills into place right away. You know, do they need to get up? I had— I do therapy intensives as well, which are longer sessions, 3 hours to 6 hours. Anyway, I had one therapy intensive session that that happened, and I was just like, okay, this never happened before in intensive. What do I do? What we actually did was went outside. We changed rooms, changed positions. Sometimes that can help too, to be able to see a different scenery. So we actually went, we did some mindfulness outside. There were some trees and a little stream outside. Was very fortunate where we were.

Host

It's very pretty. Perfect setup.

Guest

But it was really helped to settle down to sometimes getting out of the space if possible can be helpful.

Host

That's really interesting. And it sounds like, you know, when I, when I was asking the question of, you know, what— oh God, panic. What do you do now? You're here with someone's trauma, but it sounds like you're getting ahead of The game, not the game. You're getting ahead of things by being so—

Guest

Pacing, right.

Host

Paced, so appropriately paced and so in tune with your body, the client's body.

Guest

There, yeah, there's a lot going on there.

Host

So you're probably not even risking getting to that point because you're so aware. Well, knock on wood, perfect world.

Guest

Not perfect, but yeah. But I think the other piece of this too, and I tell supervisees, is Make sure you get your trauma training.

Host

Yes.

Guest

Right. That's the other piece of this, cuz a lot of people come out of grad school, they think I'm good. I'm ready to go. No, you need to get some specific training for trauma and to make sure that you understand how to pace with trauma safely and so that you don't end up causing harm.

Host

What was your trauma training like?

Guest

Initially I did some for trauma-focused CBT and then I kind of moved from there and I do more with brain spotting too, with trauma and do still do some training on that as well.

Host

Do you incorporate the brain spotting into your practice now?

Guest

Yes. I'm more integrative. So I bring brain spotting, um, the somatic practices, trauma-informed yoga, as well as like parts work, DBT, CBT, just all the acronyms.

Host

Yeah.

Guest

All the different things, but I base it. And again, each session could be different. So it depends on what the client's bringing that day and what I think would be appropriate for that client.

Host

I keep thinking back to a time in my life where I really, really was embracing yoga and I had not done it before and became really close with a yoga teacher at the gym that I went to and started doing private yoga sessions with her. And I remember, you know, it was very, you know, not emotionally based. You know, it was yoga. We were doing yoga. And I remember she knew from just becoming close with her, she knew that I was very depressed at the time and kind of didn't know why. And I remember her having me sit in a chair. And at that point I was like quite young and limber and did not— I could be putting my feet on the wall or going upside down.

Guest

Sure.

Host

And I remember thinking, why does she want me to do this? And I can't remember exactly what pose she had me do, but I started sobbing.

Guest

Mm-hmm.

Host

And I remember thinking like, what? You know, when you're on the verge of, of crying.

Guest

Yes. Well, that's good.

Host

I was not that way. And I just started sobbing. And luckily I was in a safe environment. This yoga instructor, Monica McMahon, Boca Raton, Florida. Um, gotta catch up with you. Don't know if she remembers when I started sobbing in the chair.

Guest

Of course.

Host

I'm not asking you to diagnose me in that moment 15 years ago, but Is that something that kind of makes sense when you are feeling secure with someone that you are comfortable with, with a professional? Does it, does it make sense that I started sobbing?

Guest

Yeah, of course, because our body holds trauma, right? And past, past issues that we don't process, it doesn't go away. Because I, I hear this a lot from clients. They're like, I just put it away and try not to think about it. But guess what? It doesn't go away. It's going to be stored somewhere in the body. And then sometimes you may do a pose and then realize that it— something's coming up, right? Because that's where it was stored. Like, and I'm just thinking about the hips. Like, if we do hip openers, sometimes that can be sexual trauma that can be stored there, and that can come up and, and cause emotional reaction. And yeah.

Host

What are, what are some other poses that that you might encourage for people? I know I asked you about this already, but I'm so curious. I think this will be really helpful for people to hear as well. For, like you said, sexual trauma, hip opener.

Guest

I know it can be too much too, so we do have to—

Host

Sure. I know when I am tired, I know I'm supposed to like be inverted and that's supposed to help, but what are some other tips that you can share with us? And of course, with the disclaimer of if you're doing this in session, with clients, get your trauma training, get, get consultation, reach out to Kris.

Guest

Right.

Host

What are some, some other poses that some presentations can encourage?

Guest

Well, sometimes too, and I think I mentioned this with the shoulders up to the ears, that's very common. But the other presentation I see a lot is clenched, right? Kind of closed over. They're not really looking at you. Posture's kind of slouching. Sometimes in the nervous system too, if we just make a shift in posture, that can change overall energy and sensation. And I've had clients too that will practice in session. So I'll just say, I noticed that you're kind of, your shoulders forward and you have a little roundness in your back. I wonder what it'd be like to start moving the shoulders back and leaving them there. Ooh.

Host

And leaving them there.

Guest

And bring the chest forward. Right. And what if you sat up a little straighter? What does that feel like? And that could even lead to if we bring the arms open for a chest opener. And if that's too much here, maybe here or here. I'm just moving arms a little bit closer. And sometimes this can be very vulnerable if we have the chest open.

Host

Talk about a heart opener.

Guest

Heart opener.

Host

It's so vulnerable. It should truly Yeah.

Guest

So a lot of people cut, like, especially with trauma, right? Nervous system, we're covering our internal organs. It makes sense too. But if we can start to move clients to open up some, right, that can help bring defenses down to help them feel, and a little more confident too. So if we think of assertiveness training, right, we got to bring the shoulders back open, chest open.

Host

Yeah. What about, I'm trying to think of another good example to put you on the spot with. Um, And then when you're— if that's the case, let's say you're encouraging someone to—

Guest

Sure.

Host

Like chest heart opener. Are you then throughout the session, are they, are they trying to remain or be in tune with that through the rest? Even if you're taught, then moving on to kind of talk therapy, are they still trying to—

Guest

It's up to them. Again, it's back to that client autonomy. It's because we might do it for a little while and most of the time if they're not, they're like, Okay. I can't do this.

Host

Right, right. Then it probably feels so unnatural if that's not—

Guest

Well, let's try it again before we leave, right? What would that be like? And, and again, this comes back to nervous system regulation and think of that window of tolerance. The goal is not to push them out of their window of tolerance. We wanna try to work within that and just knowing that sometimes our window of tolerance, especially clients that have complex trauma, is much smaller. So that's where the pacing comes in with trauma treatment.

Host

That's really— that's so interesting. That whole pacing piece really answers so many of the questions that I would have for, for this kind of work.

Guest

Right. And we don't dive into the deep end, right? We start with putting a little toe in.

Host

Wow. I'm excited to see what— and to see what kind of poses I can come up with tonight that I can ask you about. I want to ask you, Chris, something that, that we've started with, with the podcast recently is something that I've coined our voice notes section or segment of the podcast where I would like to ask you if I could— I think I want to tweak it a tiny bit to really make sense with, with your work. Usually I say, if you could tell your younger self, your younger self therapist, something, what would it be?

Guest

Right.

Host

If you could tell an up-and-coming therapist, let's say, that might be interested in thinking, Do I have to, you know, yes, I'm going to get my, my degree in whatever mental health capacity I'm going to. I'm going to obviously get training in, in these areas. Can I, you know, once I'm established and have all the training, can I incorporate some of this stuff? What would you say to someone that might be thinking, can I, can I look outside the box a little bit?

Guest

Yes. Yes, you can. Starting there. Yes. So it is in our scope of practice. Now, there's a caveat to that, that we do have to make sure we get training, right? Just like with trauma, we gotta make sure that we build what's called our scope of competence. And then if you do wanna move on to yoga training too, I mean, that bringing yoga to the therapy room, you need to get some training as well. So to get yourself, you don't have to get 200 hours, by the way, as long as you're getting some training, but we wanna make sure we stay within that scope of what we've learned in training. And of course, with our ethical codes, depending on your licensure, you know, making sure to get consultation, supervision, all the things are really important. But also a part we didn't talk about was tying into counseling theory too. I, I come from polyvagal lens. You can bring this in with DBT practice, even CBT. So having the clinical theory part, so whatever you wanna do, stepping outside the box and bringing more holistic therapies, yes, look into that. Be willing to explore and figure out what aligns with me, right? What do I feel passionate about? And then investigate, get more training, and meet other colleagues who are passionate.

Host

Yeah.

Guest

And, and that's what I found over the years is I realized, man, I don't know many therapists that do what I do. Kind of lonely out here. So once I started to open my networks, I have this wonderful community now, people around the world that I can talk to and that we are interested in the same things and I have a Facebook group for therapists that want to bring yoga in the therapy room. So all of that is just nice to have that community. So finding community with people that you're interested in, I think can make all the difference.

Host

Are you open to sharing with us about, about the community that you've found? Because I think that people will probably want to connect with you.

Guest

It was called Bringing Yoga in the Therapy Room. Shocking.

Host

Perfect. Perfect.

Guest

Yeah. So, so basically I do post in there just different tips and tricks with bringing yoga in the therapy room. post on my trainings. Um, yeah, and, uh, have a lot of resources in there. It's a free group. So—

Host

Can we link— is it okay with you if we link this at the end of the episode?

Guest

Yeah, yeah.

Host

We'll also include ways to get in touch with you and, and learn more about you. Thank you so much, Chris. This was really so fun. And yes, I know that's not the word, but it is the word that I'm using for this because yoga is so— it's so fun. It's so interesting. And I love learning about how you so responsibly and ethically are melding these two, because I don't know that everyone necessarily does that. Um, you know, I know a lot of people are into mindfulness and, and bodywork, but I so appreciate how you are assuring us and making it first and foremost so important that you've got the training that you need. You've got—

Guest

Absolutely.