Grief Work, Therapy Animals, and Building Community for Those Navigating Loss

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at Reach Link. My name is Jessica Herurwitz and I oversee Reach Link's network of therapists. I have an exciting guest or two today. We have McKenzie Russell Lane. She's an LPC and works with Bloomwell Counseling. She has a guest for us today. One of her staff, I I would say hello, June. This is June. Is this June lane? Yes. I I can't not ask you. Tell us everything. Um, so we got June. Uh, my husband was actually on swing shift at the time and so I was like, I just want another living breathing thing at home and we didn't want to pay the money for a French bulldog because they are very popular. Um, and he messed up and said, if you can find one under this price, I'll splitter her with you. And so I had uh a deposit down the next day. So, we didn't intend for her to be a therapy dog, but we just kind of saw like how well she did with people, how much joy she brought to people.

Um, and I just said, "Let's try her out in the office." She had already been trained and everything, went through that as a pup. So, she's been with me ever since. So, she's been in the office for about four years now. So, you were a therapist for a while before before getting her. Yeah. I always wonder in private and and worked a lot with trauma and just kind of saw that as well of like how much comfort that dogs especially bring to us and then how intuitive they are with the with the trauma piece. And so I was kind of like, hm, I wonder. And then the rest is history. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. She is absolutely adorable. Anytime she wants to do a little lift up, she's she's more than welcome. She's got seven boys out here right now, so she's kind of going through both. She's a great assistant as well.

She really is. Let me ask you, McKenzie. So, I was visiting your website for a while and you do a lot of cool things. I know I don't have to tell you that. Um, but I know that what became obvious to me is that you do a lot of grief work and and what with what you just alluded to, that makes more sense. Did you start out in your practice doing a lot of grief work or did it kind of find you in your practice? A little bit of both to be totally honest. So, um I I finished my undergrad from Mirable College. I went there all four years and we had really great partnerships in the community with nonprofits and internships and that was kind of their goal was to bring us out into internships to hopefully end up having jobs. Um and we have a local place called Main Support. They're no longer in Marville, they're still in Tennessee.

They're in Rockwood, Tennessee. Um, but they focused on equin assisted grief and so for me I was like going to play with ponies while I'm a college student. Absolutely. So ended up loving it. I don't think you really ever try to find grief. I do feel like it it it looks for you and that's how it works out. Um, and I just absolutely fell in love with it which is kind of weird wording I guess for that. But my biggest thing about it is it's it's um it's one of those things that you never know when it's going to hit. And I've just found out that we're not very grief literate as a culture, even though it's inevitable and we're all going to experience it. Um, so I just kind of started getting my feet wet into more trainings. I ended up doing um David Kesler certified grief educator program um and just continued my grief work and now I really utilize the EMDR piece a lot in my grief work.

How much would you say like is there a percentage that you do EMDR in your grief work? Is it always appropriate? How does that work? It kind of depends on each individual client. So, I do have some people that reach out to me specifically for the EMDR. Um, and then I have probably the other 50% reach out to me just for um, you know, maybe it's not grief counseling, maybe it's, you know, life transitions. Um, I work a lot with trauma, so um, personality disorders, things of that nature come up a lot on my case load. Um, and then we kind of find that maybe this would be a good aspect to bring EMDR in to neutralize some of these things. Um, and we've really seen the uptrend of EMDR um, with my grief clients because I don't think I've seen a grief case yet that's not traumatic in some way. And we kind of know in the grief world that it really is that line in the sand, right?

There was before you lost your person, there's after you lost that person. Um, and so I've really found that EMDR is that really great tool to be able to bridge both worlds and figure out how do we keep going moving forward with that grief. What does your best assistant does? She ever pop in on an EMDR session or is that completely a no all the time? She does. So, she kind of just comes and hangs out at the office with me. I actually um use buzzers for my clients. So, it's got the lights on the top, but typically they have them in their hands. And it's really funny because if you know anything about Frenchies, they snort like pigs. And sometimes she'll actually sit on clients laps while they're doing EMDR. And if she can feel the buzzers, she starts snoring like to the the level of the EMDR buzzers.

And so it's really interesting because it feels like it kind of grounds her as well. Um, and that's fascinating. It really is. And I've had really great feedback from clients of is this distracting? Because if so, like we need to leave her out of the office. And I've had overwhelming feedback of she's such a great grounding presence even when we're doing that EMDR piece that she ends up being even more of a tool in that way. U so it's it's interesting to see how it integrates together for sure. I'm having such a flashback. I'll probably have to take this out cuz this is ridiculous. When I was a little girl, I was seeing a therapist who had a therapy dog and I was obsessed. I was so in love with this dog and one day it wasn't there and I was like, "Oh no." And I asked her, like I tried to be casual, you know, like, "Where's your dog?

Where's your dog? No big deal." And she said to me that she felt like the dog was was distracting for me and I, you know, I didn't say anything. I was a little kid. I was shy, but the nerve, you know, I've been dealing with abandonment. Yes. Yeah. This is why I'm here. Like, let me be involved in that decision, please. Completely forgot that until I met your little baby. Anyway, it's so funny because I've got clients that'll ask is if I've got um HeartLike groups, I do leave her at home on those days just because the group looks a little bit different than in an individual session. Um and I'll have clients that'll be like, "Where's the dog?" And I'm like, "Good to see you, too. How's your week, baby?" How are you? How are you? Good to see you, too. She's at home. It says so. It says so much, though.

I think so many times people think, you know, that aren't in the field or know much about therapy animals, oh, it's a cute animal that's in the session. Maybe it'll comfort me a little bit. But what you the story you just told about about some EMDR sessions, that's incredible. And that's not just a coincidence, obviously. No, I don't think so either. I I agree with that. I think um and sometimes, too, she's goofy and silly because she's a bulldog. Um, and I think that's a really good life lesson for both the therapist and the client of sometimes we have to laugh at these things because what's going on? Um, we have to be able to bring some humor into the session. And so sometimes she kind of gets us out of that serious phase and gives us a little bit of a break before we we dig a little bit deeper into that trauma work.

That's amazing. That is like taking away the the art really of the work of the therapist and just bringing such human well Yeah. into the whole thing. So, you mentioned um you had just mentioned the Heartlight Center and I noticed that a lot on your website. Can you tell us a little bit about that? So, that's separate from your practice and then I want to get back to your practice because I feel like we didn't hear enough about it. Absolutely. Um so, Heartlight Center, I've actually been with them a year this month, which is kind of crazy. Um our executive director, um Jen Flom, had actually emailed me through my website and was like, "I'm not spam. I promise I'm a real person." Um, but essentially it was just like, I want to see what grief resources are out there. We're looking at bringing Heartlight out to Mirabul.

Um, would you be interested in sitting down with me and one of the funeral directors? Um, so ended up having a great conversation with she and uh and Lynn Gibson, who's one of, uh, Smith Funeral Homes main funeral directors, and we were just talking about grief. Ended up being a two-hour conversation of us just like going back and forth. um ended up getting with them to be the community liaison with Heartlight Center and it's been so phenomenal. I've actually grown up in Mirville, Tennessee. I've never left. Um I'm a hometown native for sure and so to see Smiths want to bring something like this to our community where there's not a whole lot of grief resources anyways. Um but especially in Marble. Um so it's just been really interesting because we've got uh we started out with one group and now we're up to six per week.

We've got um a whole range. So sometimes they're more of the open grief support circle, any type of death, any any timeline, and then we've got some that are um more specific, loss of child, loss of spouse, things of that nature. Um but it's really interesting just to see that universality piece really play out within this. Um and then with Heartlight, our whole mission is meaningful accessible grief. And so it just feels like we're very much playing that out in real time. Um and it's, you know, death care is weird. Grief is a really weird thing. Um, but it's just so interesting just to see how everyone wraps around each other and wraps around the families that we care for and it's it's been a phenomenal experience. So, I love it. That's amazing. Is it is it mostly Is there a lot of group work then?

So, I do see some kids. Um, typically I don't go below eight. Um, so the majority of my case load is adults. Um, adults in their younger 20s is kind of one of my sweet spots. Um, but definitely, you know, kind of a wide range of adults. Um, I do have a group practice, so it's really nice that I have wonderful therapists that I'm able to send all the little kiddos to, um, for them to kind of focus their really amazing work with them. Tell us more about your group practice. I know it took us all over the place on quite a distracted ride, but it was the dog. I I get that. I mean, it's not fair. Tell us about the practice. What is Are there other providers there you mentioned? Um, is did you start the group? I did. We are actually um one month in. It's very new. Um I was a solo practice for the past about three years.

Um it has always been a dream of mine to have a group practice. Again, not a huge number of group practices in Marville. And so that was one of my things is this is my hometown. I want us to have really good quality services here. Um so I've got amazing therapists. We've got two interns that have just been amazing for the team. Um my biggest thing was just creating a practice with both quality and intentionality. Um and ensuring that that my girls can see that private practice can actually be really great. Um there's flexibility. You can be a parent or you can be a a spouse or um you can have hobbies. There's so much flexibility within private practice. Um I've got therapists from all over the board. You know, some have been in the school system. Um some have been in private practice for a while.

Um some really just love working with the little bitty kiddos. And then I've got some that really, you know, thrive working with an older population. So that was kind of my thing was was bringing really great quality therapists to the area um and showing clients that this is what this experience can look like. That's amazing. And especially with the interns, I always feel like it's such it's such a great thing when when therapists really seek that out or really want that. I know of course it's a great help but you are doing such a service to these budding therapists that you know probably have a path that's pretty clear in front of them and are being opened up to to a lot under the supervision of someone that they should. Yeah, absolutely. And and that's something too is um I really believe in education.

Knowledge is power. Um I'm actually in a PhD program for clinical supervision and education. Um, so that's another important piece to me is like that that's fulfilling to be able to teach the next generation of therapists. Um, we already don't have enough as it is. And so I think if if we could teach therapists um in a in a very clinically strong way that hey, it's okay. We don't have to be scared of all of this. We can be brave. Um, and I do kind of challenge my interns a little bit and they end up rising to the occasion every time and it's a wonderful teaching opportunity. So it's been really really cool to see them flourish in that way. That's probably just as good an experience for you as it is them. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. It's been so fun. So there, so at the group practice there, you do see younger than age.

Yes. Yeah. So we've got some girls um I don't personally as a therapist. Um that's typically not my sweet spot. Um not not an area that I do well with, but we do have some therapists that are seeking out some play therapy certifications. um that do have some experience working with those those smaller kiddos and just are so passionate about it that you can just even see it like when they're talking about um their ideal population. It's just so interesting to kind of see them light up. So um that to me are the people that were hand chosen for that field. Yeah. Hand chosen. That's exactly that's a perfect way to say it. And you do you guys do couples and family as well? Yes. So um we've got a couple of therapists actually. We've got two that see couples. Um each of our therapists are pretty open to especially like support sessions.

Um maybe it's not a family session, but you know bringing family members into sessions. We kind of all do that quite often just because especially when you're working with trauma um or you know maybe a really life-changing diagnosis, it can be really important to ensure that their support system is indeed being supportive. And what does that communication look like with the grief therapy? I know I was asking about um you know the percentage of how many people do EMDR and and all of that. When someone comes to you and you know they're they're coming to your practice to address grief. How does what does that intake process look like specifically for grief? Specifically for grief honestly kind of looks a little bit all over the place. So when we're looking at grief they've had this huge big transition that they're dealing with.

Um, however, that's also one of the most confusing parts about grief is that let's say we lost a dad, but there's five siblings. Each of those five siblings had a different relationship with that dad. Um, and that can be so hard when we already grieve so differently anyways. Um, and then again, we're quite illiterate as a society when it comes to grief, even though it's inevitable, even though we're all going to go through it. Um, and then the other big piece is just there tends to be an expectation of timeline of when you should get over it. Um, so I kind of call it, you know, when the casserole time stops. So people stop coming over, people stop bringing the casserles and it's kind of that time for you to sit with it and to figure out how do I keep moving? You don't move on from grief. So it's bringing it with you into this new version of yourself.

So that intake really does look like what's been the hardest part of this and is there a traumatic piece of it? Um did you maybe find your person or was there a terminal illness and you were the caregiver? So then you're trying to battle with some of the things that you saw in that anticipatory grief that you might have dealt with. At Reach Link, we believe that mental health care should meet you where you are literally and emotionally. Whether you're navigating stress, burnout, relationships, or life transitions, you don't have to do it alone. With the Reach Link app, you can connect with licensed therapists through secure, convenient telealth sessions on your time from your space. No commute, no waiting rooms, just real support when you need it most. And for the therapists listening, if you're passionate about making care more accessible, if you want the flexibility to work from anywhere while focusing on what matters most, your clients, Reach Link is growing.

We're building a community of dedicated, compassionate clinicians who are ready to expand their impact through teleaalth. So whether you're seeking support or ready to provide it, join us at Reachlink. download the app or learn more at reachlink.com because better mental health should always be within reach. I really appreciate that part about looking for the check not looking for necessarily but checking for for the trauma because I would imagine such focus on the grief itself and not knowing if you know this other thing did happen like that was kind of part of it. um how to tie that in. And I love that you said that it was all over the place because if I were grieving, I would imagine something stressful to me would be something organized. Like while I would be yearning for organization, I would know that's just not where I'm going to be.

And and being met with that, I I would like I would like that because it would also show me that like you're saying, clearly not everyone's grief is the same. even when it's the same person who may have passed. And that's, you know, something I tell all of my clients when they're first coming in, especially if they've either not been to therapy for quite some time or if they've never been to therapy of, hey, today is going to be a little bit all over the place. Please know that's totally normal. Um, this is really for us to truly get to know each other. And grief work is already so vulnerable. It's hard to come in and tell a complete stranger about all of these terrible things that have been happening. And then on top of that, your life doesn't stop when you lose somebody. You still have kids to get to practice or you still have a job that's requiring that deadline of you.

There's still bills to pay. And so all of that's going on over here. And we're trying to deal with all of this when we still aren't even functioning in our normal capacity, right? So I'm supposed to actually do my job and and everything and also stay functioning and okay. Something that you said made me think of this and I hope it's okay to ask. What with with grief work when it was when you mentioned that people who've lost the same person might be experiencing something totally different when you lose someone and let's say you were not on on good terms with them or let's say actually you were on fine terms but have some some stuff you know someone's passed away you're so upset you've lost them but you still have that I'm still pissed about this. How do you can you help people with that? How do you how do you explain that to someone?

We talk about so often. It's so funny that you bring that up. Um I do have some DBT background. I've been trained in dialectical behavior therapy. Um so what's one of our favorite phrases in DBT? Both and um and that is what we talk about both in the practice and a lot in groups at Heartlight of both things can be true. I miss them so much. it physically makes me sick and man I am pissed off that they left me or I'm really mad that I'm close to this parent too but my mom was my best friend and I had to lose my mom. You know all of these things grief is so conflicting anyways but we're not really taught to hold those conflicting feelings. So a lot of times what I end up seeing come out of that is guilt um and even worse shame. And so that is a a big piece of working through that or um you know the what a could a shouldas of I should have said this before they passed but I didn't make it to the room or you know just kind of replaying those both things can be true.

I really like that answer. That's I I think that's really comforting if I may. um that but I guess that that's what all of this is. Someone telling you that this is this is normal even if it's something that doesn't doesn't feel it and that reassurance. That's what I've liked about the groups too. Uh you know, we were kind of talking about the univers universality piece of it earlier. It's so interesting because heartlight groups are actually peer support. So, I get to take my therapist hat off, but it is really neat that I do have the experience with the trauma and I have been working in grief because I can say, "Hey, putting my my hat back on for a second, but this is actually a common, you know, physical symptom." Um, but the universality piece of it of hearing someone say, "I know I sound crazy," or, "I know I sound mean, but this is a thought I had today."

And almost every single time, someone across the table will say, "Oh my gosh, I thought I was alone." And so hearing someone else that it might be a totally different loss, but that they're feeling those same things at a time where you already feel so isolated, that is so incredibly powerful. And in my opinion, that's what keeps people coming back of I take off this mask. I get to talk a language that someone else understands because I've not been able to talk this language with anyone else in my life. creating a space where someone is able to say even even if you don't want them to feel like they have to say this but for them to say this is going to sound mean I'd be waiting sitting on the edge of my seat for okay this is when the work is going to come because that's so I think everyone knows that feeling of whether it's grief or not but especially grief of am I allowed to think this am I allowed to say this because of this person's put on a pedestal kind of in my life.

They've they've died. I can't say anything or think anything negative and to hear other people Yeah. And that's, you know, that's the cool thing about uh the groups as well is all the timelines look different. So I might have someone that um we've had a group before where there was someone 30 days out and then I've got in that same group someone that's seven years out. And so I think that's, you know, a fascinating piece too of, hey, I remember feeling just like that. And man, like great job getting out of bed today because that that was a hard spot to be in. That's so helpful cuz immediately I think I at least think, oh, I want everyone to be in the same exact boat as me so I can compare myself to them and how they're grieving, which is totally ridiculous. But hearing someone that has gone through something similar, certainly not the same, but from the outside of yes, you're going to go through that and you also might go through this.

Is there I can't think of a way to say this without sounding so insensitive, but it's kind of funny. When people are beginning their stages of grief and they reach out and they want to be part of this, is there a too soon? Is there a like, ooh, like this is too traumatic right now? You see what you can't see. Do you know what I mean? You know, I don't turn anyone away. Um, and we all, it's really interesting because we actually do team huddles with Heartlight every week and we're all so different. A lot of us come from the clinical background. Um, but for me, I think this comes more from a human perspective as opposed to the clinical side. Um, the hardest thing to me is to walk through the front door, especially of a grief group. Um, so if you're reaching out and calling me and saying, "Hey, my dad died yesterday and I don't know if I'm going to be there.

I don't know if my legs will carry me there." Absolutely come on in because if you're looking for support, we want to be that support for you. I always want to be that open door. And I also ensure that I'm calling people before a group and saying, "Hey, what questions do you have? I know you have them. Um, how can we alleviate some of that stress?" Yeah. How can we alleviate that stress for you? How can we make this easier? because it's not an easy process. Um so for me, no that was a really long way to say that of I don't turn anyone away for timeline. Um you know having the clinical side I do there might be an opportunity where I can say hey I want to make sure that you're in with someone individually as well or do you think it would be easier to process the trauma piece first before you enter a group?

Um, but as of this point, I'm so lucky with the group members that we have because you can truly see them like wrap around these people and say, I'm so I'm so impressed that you're here. Um, because I couldn't even brush my hair at that point, you know, and to hear that when you don't have something to compare it to like, oh, oh, really? I'm doing great, actually. Yeah, I'm amazing. Sometimes you just need that, you know, everyone needs a cheerleader in their life and and these people, they are each other's cheerleaders. And it's so fun to watch and sometimes just like sit back because you would think each group is going to be like really tearful and, you know, really hard, but you know, there are tears and we laugh a lot during the group because it's a it's a weird language to have to speak now and and we're figuring it out together kind of day by day.

There's probably a lot of that cathartic laugh. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sure the other kind too. I mean, I meant crying. Crying. Both. You knew. I do. Exactly. Exactly. She knew. She could read my mind. How often do you do the groups? Um, so I actually have a a group going every single week. Um, one week I've got two. So, we've got um ascendant traumatic loss group, an open grief support group, um loss of child, loss of spouse, loss of parent, and then we've actually been able to partner with contact line here locally. Um and Scott Payne, he does a lot of our QPR and like suicide trainings around here. He actually has partnered with us and he's uh providing a survivors of suicide loss in the group. Um I've tried to clone myself a couple of times and it's not worked out. Um, so that's how we're figuring out like how do we bring more groups to the community and so it's connecting with those people that they're also meant to do this work.

Are you and you can say yes. Are you now I can ask whatever I want. Exactly. Do you feel that like I can tell from this picture that you've painted and from what I've read about you, you what you're doing for your community is incredible. Do you can you see the changes that you've made? I think so. I think um I don't think I'd do the work if if I couldn't. Um it can be that's that's something that I've really focused on especially in the therapy career of I don't want to be burned out. I don't want to be you know 45 and in the chair and you know complaining to all these young therapists like I want to wake up every single day and love going to my job. And I can genuinely say I wake up every single day and I love going to my job. And that that sounds cliche. Um but when you No, I you can you are a very genuine person and I know that from our short time together.

It's not cliche that way. It's just really nice of um and too I'm really lucky that the funeral home like they've become my second family. I call them and I'm like, "Hey, I'm coming up to we're again weird job. I'm coming to hang out at the funeral home." Um but it makes a difference too like when you have people that are cheering you on. Um and I don't get micromanaged. They're like, "Mackenzie, what's up? How you doing?" And I'm like, listen to all these great meetings we've done this week because it is it's getting it's getting our mission out there. It's getting the word out to people that we're here. And so getting to see I mean I've been with some of these people now for a year and I've got to see their milestones and I've got to you know cry with them over some things and uh do candle lights at the graveside with everyone for the holidays and just these really important big things that I would want someone there with for me.

And so I think that's been the big piece is like being able to see something like this come to Marbleville, Tennessee, which used to be really tiny when I was little, but now it's it's definitely growing. Um, so to be able to see people from all walks of life get to benefit from this has just been amazing. That's exactly what what I was picturing when I'm I'm just imagining you growing up here and how much more it's special anywhere. what you're doing is incredible anywhere, but the fact that you're doing it where you grew up, where you probably know some people, um, and them, I know it's not all about what other people are thinking, but everyone seeing you doing this good work for for the place, the town that you grew up in is such an extra special element that that's why I was so curious if I wanted to make sure you felt it because I will find some people to ask and tell them she's not sure.

So, you got a letter to tell her. I didn't move away. I looked at um I ended up taking a gap year between undergrad and my master's program just to figure out where I wanted to land. Um and then ended up meeting my husband and I've got two amazing stepids and so that kept us here. But I wouldn't change it for the world. My mom and dad are here, my sister's here, my niece is here. So, um and we live in a really beautiful place. We get all four seasons. So, there's really there was no point for me to leave. I was gonna I was gonna say what a perfect place to be, but I know when someone else says it, it's not like you can't really that's not okay. Like what do you know about the perfect place I live? No, it really is. I'm very blessed of where we live because we it's beautiful here and you're close to a lot of things.

It gets hot in the summer, but we don't get, you know, 8 in of snow every other day and things like that. So, it's more for our fair weather people. I have a random one for you. With with the change of seasons and and grief work, do you notice this is such a loaded question and I wait till we have like 2 minutes left to ask it anyway with the change of seasons and all I know I can't be the only one that feels such you know I know there's obviously seasonal effective but I think so many people otherwise feel such emotion even nostalgia with the change of seasons. Do is there and this might be obvious. I'm just a lay person. Is there a big correlation? Do you notice shifts like in your groups especially when there are people that you know when when the season has changed? Absolutely. And and um that's actually kind of a double-edged sword in that way because that's what we know about trauma too is it gets stored in our memories and in our body.

Um so even like some of the you know around here everyone's cutting their grass now. Um, so maybe that scent of fresh cut grass actually triggers you to when you found out someone died or um all of these that can actually be both. Sometimes it's a lot better for people. Um, and sometimes it does bring up some really hard things, but overall I would say across the board I do see, you know, better ability to use coping skills. It's not great, it's not cold. Um, I'm a gardener, so like for me, I'm out in the soil every single day like really focusing on that intentionality. And I know a lot of my people are too of I'm going to go you I tell people be a house plant like just go sit out in the sun for 15 minutes because we need it right now. Um and so I definitely think that that makes such a huge difference for a lot of people.

And then even in the group so up at Grand View um our our funeral homes uh graveside we have what's called the healing path. Um and Dr. Jason Troyer and Lynn Gibson created it together. And each stage is actually a phase of grief. And so this time of year, I'm like, "Hey, let's go down to the the graveside and do the healing path." And that's how we're going to do grief today. And so it's beautiful outside, but you're still getting the grief work. And you're getting to walk a little bit with it, too. Wait, tell us more about this. It's amazing. It's like, I just did. What do you mean? Amazing. But this sounds amazing. I'll have to send you um I'll make sure tonight to send you a link just so you can read a little bit about it. Perfect. And I'll link it. I'll link it. Please do. So it was very um again, small town um full circle for me.

So, one of my professors at Marbleville College, Dr. Jason Troyer, actually got me into counseling because when I switched to psych, I was like, I'm doing anything but counseling. That was the famous last words. Um, and he actually focused on um, widowers specifically. That was a lot of his research work. Um, and so I had been talking to Dr. Troyer, you know, all throughout my college career. He ended up partnering with Smith and they created what's called the healing path. And every single one, we've actually got a um Jason Troyer actually has a virtual version of this now that you can download an app. Um and you can light a candle for the person that you love. Um there's I always say when I'm actually doing the path, I'm like, "This is my favorite one." And then we go to the next one and I'm like, "This is my favorite one.

This is it. I know I said that about that one, but this is it." Um like one of them it's a a phone booth and you can actually close the door and call the person that you love. Um, and it's an old rotary phone, so you can physically type out the number, which is really big for people. Um, and then it's so amazing. And then you can write a letter in there as well. Um, put it in the mailbox that's locked. There's only one person on the facility that actually has access to that. They do not read them. Um, they do like a special ritual with that. So, you can write a letter to your loved one. Um, there's another one that has a binder of just like words of advice of today was really hard for me. this is how I got through it. And so if you're feeling really alone, um some people go up there just to like walk their dogs cuz it's so beautiful.

Like the Smoky Mountains are just right behind it. So it's really peaceful anyways, but just to sit there and like read other people's experiences. Um we've got another spot where you can actually put words that represent the person that you lost, which is really cool. So, there's all kinds of different interactive um spots to be able to do this, but it's also beautiful and there's a gorgeous fountain and it's just such a great way to physically represent some of those grief processes. Um I've actually taken some clients up there to do, you know, termination sessions from grief or hey, I don't do well sitting in an office. Cool. Let's go down to Grand View and meet the healing path. That that makes you stand out so much. Oh, I love it because I have a feeling that you're not thinking like, "All right, the insurance, the this, the that, we're going somewhere."

You don't seem I mean, I'm sure you're figuring that out out some way, but I suspect the client is not we're not involved thinking anything. Yeah. Yeah. We're not I definitely um again, if you're making it to therapy, let's make it work. And how does that work for you? And then you showing up. I mean, I love it. That's everything and then some. I love you. I need to do this more often with you. I was thinking when am I going to invite when am I going to invite her back? Because now I have so many questions about the thing. Absolutely. So, I really want to make sure that everything that you mentioned, like of course your website, of course your email address and all of that so people can get in touch with you, but I really want to also include if it's okay with you, I don't want to be like giving your resources away, but like what you were just talking about was so special and not what you hear about every day. those immersive experiences.

I want to be able to list those a little bit, those resources, so that that people can see if they could make it through my rambling of it. Can we see June for our own mental health? Can we just see her before we sign off? Sorry, she's getting up from one of her seven naps today. We can imagine. We'll also Oh, hi. What do you think? I was going to say if she wouldn't get up, we would um like insert a picture of her. That's totally okay. She's here. Thank you so much, McKenzie. You were amazing as a person and as a therapist and a guest to talk to. So, you made it way too comfortable for me. So, well, I appreciate it so much for having us on here um and just letting me share a little bit about Bloomwell and Heartlight. Thank you so much, McKenzie. We'll talk to you soon.