Navigating Dual Roles: When the Therapist Is Also the Client

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at Reach Link. My name is Jessica Herurwitz and I oversee Reach Link's network of providers. I'm so excited today to be joined by Naomi Burks, LMFT of Encouraging Hope Counseling. Um Naomi, I understand a lot of your specialty really is the intersection, I guess, if you will, of spiritual care, um mental wellness, trauma-informed support, and you've really committed a lot of your your practice to helping women specifically, um navigate the evolving seasons, which I stole from your wording, of their lives, which I loved. Thank you so much for being here. We want to hear everything. I know I speak for everyone, I think. So tell us a little bit about how how you got into this practice, what life has been like up until now. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for having me on.

I'm very honored and I really really appreciate it. It has been embedded in my spirit since I was 7 years old that I wanted to be a therapist. So people used to ask me um you know what do you want to do when you grow up? And I will always say I want to be a psychologist because I didn't want to prescribe medicine. like I'm I don't believe in medicine. I don't want to do those sort of things. But eventually I ended up becoming a therapist. But it has always been there. And I do feel like part of that was coming from God. Like that this is my purpose. Yes, it's work, but this is my purpose. This is why I walk the way I walk and this is why I am the way I am with clients. I grew up in East Oakland, California. Things were a little rocky from time to time, but I always had support in different areas of my life and certain people would plant a seed and others will come and water it.

Right? So, it was very very important for me growing up as a child and then as adolescent and then just moving into my adulthood. Ironically, I went into the dental assistant field first to pay my way through college and then I ended up having children, getting married, getting a divorce and all of those sort of things. It was a very beautiful that I needed to step in and assist with my younger brother at his age of 14, at my age of 28 years old. And that's when I went back to school cuz I was like, what is happening? And I was just getting nudged and nudged in my spirit like you need to get back in school to become a therapist. And then eventually that's when I went back to undergrad and then that's how I am where I am now. I love that story and I love I love the family involvement. That's amazing.

Did you know so I think it's very clear that you knew there was going to be a spiritual component to your work. Yes. Did you know the whole time? That's definitely so I wanted to stay grounded in my roots and my biblical truth. So as I was going for u my bachelor's in psychology and emphasis on child development, I also went to school for biblical studies and received a degree and that Wow. All at the same time. Yes. Yes. And this is when you also you're saying that you had a family, you had children. Yes. Wow. That must have been a lot. It was. It was. It was a very trying time and I feel that it taught me a lot about who I am as a person and as a child of God and who I am with the mental health and I really focused on a lot of work and with youth. So that's how I started out. So in 2014 I went back to school.

So I just quit my job as a dental assistant and went back to school for the master's program. I was like I can't focus on both. I was unemployed for a year and so I ended up working in 2015 and I started out with kids with special needs. But before that I have always been grounded and rooted in the church and heavily involved in our youth program. So working with the kids and the adolescence and it's just always been a part of me growing up. I feel that like I said certain people planted seeds and then certain people will come and water it and those people were very important to me and made my life on a different trajectory than what it could have been. So I want to be that in others lives. So even now that I'm mostly working with adults and women, I still have my hand in with the youth. What is your practice like now?

So, I know that you you do a lot of work with women and I want to I want to get into that significantly. Do you is it specifically just with with adult women or in practice with other people? It really just depends on who wants support. I do have men who come to therapy and they want to work through things and and it's so funny. I had one client say, "Oh, I don't want to work this out in a situation with a family member, but I just want to process it." And then eventually at the end of our session, they really wanted to work it out, right? So, people come to therapy for all sorts of reasons, couples who seek out counseling for their marriage. And they really appreciate that I'm a faith-based therapist, but I also have clients that come through that are not Christians and they still want this aspect to really to figure out how they can implement their spirituality into their life and for healing.

So, it doesn't have to just be Christianity. I want to make that clear. Like I don't push this on anyone, but I do get all different walks of lives that are curious and then they want to know what it is about my faith that can help them and then how they can tie that into their daily walk. Have you learned so much about about other faiths just inevitably through through all of this? Yes, it's a very eye opening and I do keep my um I'm very open open-minded. Like I said, it's not a it's a niche and it's also a help if others want to welcome it in. Right. But I don't force it. But I have learned a lot. I have learned a lot of different walks um from people and about different spiritualities. Yes. With the women that you work with, I know something that I read a lot about on on your website is really seems to be helping them through a lot of transitions perhaps with with trauma as well as identity.

I know perhaps two very separate things or intertwined. Talk to us if you could a little bit about about the trauma piece. Yes. So, um I do a lot of wounded child or inner child work with women. The men not so much, but the women Yes. Because they come and they have this trauma or they have this very strong emotions towards individuals or family members. And when we walk back through their life and kind of go into their inner child, right, and figure out what actually happened, what is the root of this? Do you really feel this way or is something happening for you that has been triggered because of your trauma that you probably stored somewhere and forgot about? And once we dive into that, a lot of healing takes place. I am also certified in EMDR. Wow. Um, and I did that with um a couple of my women clients and one of them really had this complex of I need to beat every man on this earth whether it's in my field whether it's in my personal life like where did that come from?

What is happening? And so culturally she was the first born but in her background it should have been a boy. Right? So we're just going to start there. It should have been a boy, but she was the girl and she was born. And someone had told her like, "Oh, well, you know, I'm glad your mom didn't abort you." And she was like, "Wait, what?" So, it was all these cultural factors, but when we walk back through those memories, it was not how she presumed it at all. And she presumed that her mom just did did not appreciate or regretted her. And that's not what happened. And so she was able to bring up those memories, those core memories and see that that's not true and that she has is not really in competition with her brother. She's not in competition with her significant other, her spouse. It just was very powerful.

And then it helped her humanize her mother because there were also some things happening with that as well. So just really working on our wounded child. There are things that happen to us that we come across in our lives and we might compartmentalize or we move past it and we feel like we've worked on it or we're good or whatever. I forgave or I'm not forgiven and boom, you're triggered and then you're like why am I feeling this way? So, we need to work on those core issues or concerns. Did for that person, how did things unfold for her after after you did all that work? her life was different even in her professional because she very high up there um in her job and her profession but she was surrounded by men and her interpersonal triggers were that they did not like her or that they did not respect her.

She didn't make friends at work and she wasn't even from this part of the world. It was a lot of things that was placed on hold for her that she was able to be open and heal through. Replenish that relationship with her mom and her parents and just being able to work through her relationship things that she had going on that really was mainly from her just blocking the connection with her family and her loved ones. When I read a little bit about the work that you do specifically with those seasons and identity, what kept coming to mind for me, and this is probably my own thing, was like postpartum type stuff that kept just coming to mind. And I don't know if I kind of manifested that myself uh as someone with a young child and that's kind what I cho what I chose to read and take from that.

Is that a bit of what that entails when you talk about these changes of seasons and identity? Which is great that that you asked that question because I know I told you I started off working with children and like that was my niche in the beginning. And then as I started working with the children and the young adults, I started implementing parent groups, right? parent support groups because I feel parents personalize things that happen with their children or their teenagers and they feel like, oh, it's my fault or it's a reflection of me. And it's like, no, no, no, no. We need to work on you being able to set aside and separate that. And so for postpartum, definitely, we go through things and we give birth and we go through life and then we're figuring out, oh, am I a good parent? Am I going to be um like my parents?

Am I going to be as good as my parents or am I going to do the same thing that my parents did? And there's a thing called recover or repeat. And that is in recovery. So recover or repeat. And if you repeat the cycles in your patterns of your upbringing, then you're not recovering from the wounds. Now, I'm not saying that every person is brought up and they have trauma from their parents, but every person can point out something that they did not like about their upbringing, something that they're like, I'm not going to do that. But then we might fall back into that habit, right? Because that's how we were raised. And so that postpartum can definitely be there. And then we have those identity concerns and self-esteem things that come up for us. Am I doing this right? Am I burping my baby okay?

Well, my mom said I should do it this way and then my mother-in-law said I should do it this way and what am I doing and who am I in this? And just all of these things occur and then we're just stuck in the middle like, okay, what are we doing? No. How is it that you want to be with your child? How is it that you want to be as a spouse? How is it that you want to be as a mom, as a sister, as a brother? What is your recovery so you won't repeat? And you use a lot of I believe this to be true. So, I know you do you definitely do EMDR work, but it seemed to me that you do a lot of and this is something I really respect and appreciate so much a lot of of different theoretical framework that you in incorporate a lot into your practice. Is that is that accurate? Yes, that's accurate. I love DBT uh dialectical behavioral therapy.

Some like it and some doesn't, but I feel like it works on a lot of interpersonal perspective and it helps us to be able to accept, right? Because we need to be able to accept things that has happened. Not saying that it's okay. We're not saying we're giving permission, but we need to be able to accept like, okay, and acknowledge this has happened. How am I going to move forward? I love CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, mindfulness, right? Which is part of spiritual care. It doesn't matter where you are at in your spiritual care. That is a big piece of it because if you're able to be mindful, then you're able to understand what feelings, what emotions am I dealing with, right? Is it accurate? Which also falls back to DBT, but is it is this a real thing or is this just a a negative thought pattern that I'm focusing on right now?

Like, oh, this is this chaos cuz nothing is black and white in our life. There's a lot of gray area, right? and then what is it that I'm going to accept moving forward. So really, yes, I use a lot of different modalities, but those are some of my main ones. I know that you said that you do some some couples work. Is it mostly individual and couples? Any any group or family stuff? Yes, I do have experience with groups and families. I had someone who came to me and I started work with their son and then eventually they wanted to do a family component and then eventually it branched off to a little bit of couples. Now, mind you, if I'm starting off with couples, I don't go to individuals. I refer them out because I don't want to. But in the couple therapy, it is very important for them to be able to pull out what's happening for them.

And I feel like for the men more, they do not express their emotions well, and they say things, but it's not clear what they're needing or what they're wanting, right, from their significant other. And so just helping them be able to understand that and then pulling out well I wonder I wonder why this is happening for you and then it doesn't go into individual cuz I make it very clear like I'm not but also you need to get this taken care of so that you can be healthy for your spouse right if we're working on the couples but you're also over here drowning and trauma you're not going to be able to show up for your coup's counseling 100%. And how about I think that you might do some clinical supervision. Just jumping into that. Yes. Perfect. So, this is going to be something that I'm moving into my new niche.

I do have a clinical supervisor full-time job as it's been three years that it has been a full-time thing. And I'm like, you know, I really want to move into the sector of guiding our newer clinicians, our therapists, our social workers into what they need and just being able to provide them some support and education cuz I have been in this field since 2015. And just being able to mold them into what they need to be, but also allowing them to be their authentic self. I think sometimes we come out of school and we're so rigid like, "Oh, we're not supposed to show emotions in therapy. We're not supposed to do this." No, because the clients can know, and I learned this from working with kids first. Clients know when you're being offandish or if you're being a little bit fake. No, you need to be your authentic self within safe boundaries and guidelines and healthiness.

But let them know like, hey, I'm human, too, and I have things that happen, so let's work through this. I'm so glad to hear that that this is something you're embarking on because I think just from what we know about you already, it seems like a a no-brainer that this is something that you would do from your life and your career. And I so appreciate when I hear about people wanting to help shape future clinicians, give some guidance, give that support, and it seems like it's a pretty pretty good fit for for you. If you care deeply about mental health, whether as a therapist or someone seeking support, this message is for you. If you're a therapist listening and you're looking for more flexibility, more balance, or a way to expand your impact, Reach Link is growing. We've been building a community of thoughtful, dedicated clinicians who want to make care more accessible through teleaalth without losing the human connection that matters most.

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Thank you. Yeah, I thank you so much for that. So, yes, I've started advertising for that and just putting it out there. I contacted some of my previous teachers that I'm still in touch with from the M's program and then a lot of uh my therapist cohort and then I also just am printing out my book. So, my book is just launched for pre-sale yesterday. Tell us all about the book. So, it is called Restoring the Soul. Love it. Keep going. Go ahead. Tell us everything. It's a biblical guide to mental health and wholeness. And this is also part of spiritual care and mental health. Um, once again, like I said, I wanted to stay grounded in my spiritual walk. Um, and everything I do, I do feel like it's my purpose, right? this is something that God has called me to do. This is why I'm in this work. This book is really for a higher mission with God and really bridging that gap between mental health and spirituality.

And you know, some people as I was going to school would say, "Oh, people just need to pray more. We don't need therapists. We just need to do this." And this has happened culturally across the board in different cultures. A lot of different cultures do not believe in mental health, right? Oh, just pray more. Just try harder. Just do this. And it's like, no, try harder. It's what everyone wants to hear. Try harder. Go pray. God will heal you. And it's like, yeah, God will definitely heal you and you can have some support to go through that journey. So, this book is really close to my heart. It's the first of the series and it's really connecting people with scriptures and people in the Bible that went through anxiety and depression and things that was happening and turmoil and they leaned on God, right?

And they prayed about these things, but they also had help along the way. So, it's really important to um that's what it's about. Next time I see you, it will be on my bookshelf behind me. a little lacking right now, but I always make it such a point to get the books of any guest that comes on. It's so special to me to be able to support in that way. And then I, you know, got to know you and now I know the author. Um, so I'm so excited for you. We'll make sure that at the end of the episode here that we link um in addition to how people can get in touch with you and learn more about more about you, how they can get the book and find more out about it too. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. Are you using it in in your sessions? Not yet because it just came out. So I do have a couple of my clients that are very excited and ready to buy it.

But yes, but I do use the scriptures like not per say the book, but we do for my clients who welcome it and who is in that walk of life. We talk about God all the time in sessions and we bring it back to what would God want you to do and how can you lean on God for comfort as well as using the coping skills that we put in place and the the treatment plan that we are working on to get you where you need to be. Um I do work with clients who have heavy grief, complex grief and so working through those things as well. So yes, I have a clients from everywhere. I even just completed with a client that had some medical trauma, right? Medical trauma. Um, very loving family, very supportive and she retired after retirement. She went through a very large medical situation, but then also was taking care of her mom who is moving through Alzheimer's.

So, she's like, "Wait a minute." And so, when we met, I'm like, "Well, what is it that you actually like and what is your spiritual care like and what's going on?" And it's like, I haven't thought about it. I just been so engulfed in this. And just allowing her to go back to herself, find herself again. Yeah. Right. And so this wasn't rooted in childhood things, but this was rooted in the present moment. So working on her radical acceptance and being able to get through these things and realize that she does have loving, supportive family that she can lean on and get back into her spiritual practices. things were it was very shortlived cuz she was just like oh this is just I just needed this reminder this is what was happening and I just needed to acknowledge that and so that is the power of therapy is to be able to sit with what's happening for you acknowledge it validate it and how can I move through this now I think it it goes back a lot to those those seasons that you write about with finding identity and that's just what that made me think of when you were telling that story you know, she really said, "Wait a second.

I don't know. I don't know what is my identity. What is what is it? I have not had the chance to think of my own identity." And perhaps that identity has been formed by her situation. Very freeing and also scary, I imagine. Yes. Yes, it is. But it feels good to be able to sit with people and just understand what's happening for them. Naomi, what are you telling people when they're in a situation where let's say for example someone just like this like this woman and she says to you, "I I don't know. I've been doing I've been taking care of people for my whole adult life or I've been so consumed with this other thing even for like family or even even myself. But now that this has been alleviated a little bit, I don't know where do I start?" What would you say to someone like that if you asked them about their identity and they had no idea?

Were you doing before the kids? What were you doing before you became a caretaker? What were things that you enjoyed? Right? Where is that? Because it's not about like our identity is not wrapped up into our children. Our identity is not wrapped up into our spouse, right? Because it's not their responsibility to make us happy. It's our responsibility to be able to say this brings me joy. So really figuring out what brings you joy, what brought you joy before you got to this point, right? And what happened to that? And for this particular person, it was actually doing art and her art was beautiful and sitting outside. And so we started very slow. I said, "Okay, well, you know, homework. You're going to go outside and take your shoes off and touch the grass. Let your feet like just sit in that for a moment." and then just bringing them back to what they like.

So for you, whatever it is, I know it's a hypothetical question, but whatever it is that you enjoyed before your work, before your children, before your marriage or whatever it may be and then going back to that and is it something that you can reimplement or is it something new that you need to go find what's next for me? Because we have to have something for us. You have a full cup of a full pot of coffee and you're just pouring it out every day. and oh, I'm pouring my daughter some or I'm pouring my son some and my significant other and then okay and now now I'm pouring my boss and my co-workers and my family members and eventually you have nothing left. But if you're not replenishing that, if you're not making that fresh pot of coffee, then what do you have? You are on empty. So if you're not okay, how are everybody else going to be okay?

That depends on you. That can be quite, I imagine, a realization for for some people. And while it's probably wonderful to remember, oh yeah, this there is this thing that I used to do. There is this interest I had, I wonder if people that are going through these seasons and major changes of their period of life might find themselves in a situation of that's not me anymore. That's I've got I've got to find something new. What do I do? I can't just be into my kid for forever. Yeah. And we just like what what they like, right? No. Which is true. So then we try to figure out, okay, then what is it that you're interested in now? What are you doing or what brought you into the work that you do? What flamed that fire? So just really just being able to just bring that back for them and then just, you know, let's make a list.

Let's talk about it. And then I have them just talk it through. And as they're talking, I'm making a list. Yes. Okay. So this is what I heard. So you do like you used to like to crochet, but not so much anymore because it's time consuming. But it's not that you don't like to crochet. It's because every time you sit down, the phone is ringing. Someone is needing your attention. The baby's crying or you have to get up and go to work. And so when you try to sit down and crochet, you're exhausted. So it's not enjoyable anymore. So it's not that you don't like this, it's that you're not actually still taking the time for yourself. Right. So really just So that's how we process it. I was going to say it's probably just not associated anymore with that previous good good feeling. Mhm. Mhm. And so getting them back to that or finding something new.

So something new that's helpful. Um some people who would never never garden or touch dirt find new purpose in it. Find the filling of the dirt and planting the plots and watch and watering them and watching them bloom. Very therapeutic. And so just really figuring out what's next for you and what is for you. It doesn't have to be something big, but what is for you? When clients are working with you, Naomi, and they haven't specified that they want to incorporate faith or spirituality in their sessions and you kind of as you're going, you get an inkling that it might be something that could be beneficial to someone, but they haven't necessarily sought you out for for that or have mentioned anything of it. How do you do you kind of drop drop hints in there? How do you gauge someone whether they're they're interested in taking things that spiritual direction in their care?

In our first session, I feel like I let them know hands down this is a part of my work, but I also will not bring it in unless you want to bring it in. And they're like, "Okay." So then they're already aware that it's there. And then as we're working through and then I'm like, okay, well, you brought this up a while ago that you used to go to church or that you used to do this or you used to pray like where is that? How was that for you and are you still trying to bring that in and then that's how it so nice and seamless? Yes. Yes. Would you say a certain percentage of your of your practice is is incorporate incorporating some type of spirituality? Definitely. I would say about 85%. Wow. Yeah. 85%. Sometimes it's there, but we don't talk about it and it's fine. And then sometimes it is there and it's just very evident and it's something that is always talked about.

So really just figuring out the balance. I don't want them to feel uncomfortable. I don't want them to feel like I'm pushing God on anyone or spirituality or anything of that sort. But it's there and it's very because it is who I am. It's very seamless. It's not it's not overbearing. I am friends with a lot of people who don't believe and I am friends with a lot of believers. So I can be both ways but I'm also am only only could be me, right? Uh so just having that balance and I think that that is the best part about being a therapist. It's not having your own agenda. It has to be the client's agenda and what they want and what they need. And sometimes I had a client who I worked with adolescent who originally was referred because of the death of their mother. He made it very clear. I don't want to talk about her.

I don't want to talk about my grief. I don't want to talk about it. And that was fine with me. We met and he knew it was there. It was present every now and then. like I knew when the anniversary would come up or holidays and like hey make sure you're taking care of yourself because this holiday is going to hit a little different for you. I'm available. And he was like, you know, he'll be like, okay, I got it. You know, and then they'll come in the next week. Okay. How was your or whatever after the holiday? Because this is when high school, so holidays is usually a vacation. How was your break? How did you take care of yourself? You know, so just being mindful that I'm not pushing my Now, mind you, I wanted him to process the grief. I wanted him, but that was not what he needed. He just needed someone to be there with him.

He was a teenager. So, a lot of like card games and chess and that type of thing. And we would talk about school and process was happening for him and how he's moving forward with that. And then eventually co had been introduced. He was worried about his dad and like those type of things. So, it kind of it came in that way like, oh, I'm scared something might happen to my dad and I've already lost my mom and so forth. But we did not dive into that piece of him and that's okay. So once again, we have to not as therapists be driven and traumatize our clients because we want them to work on something. That's not what it's about. It's about being present. And it's so natural for you as a helper to well, of course, I want you to as someone who cares and is here to help you, I want you to to work through this, but to be able to realize this is not what they need right now. They have they have vocalized that it will it will fall into place. Yes, definitely.