Cultural Identity and the Therapy Room: What Gets Lost in Translation

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at ReachLink. My name is Jessica Hurwitz and I oversee our network of providers. Today we are joined by Fatima Ali. I'm really excited that she's here. I probably say that about everyone and it's always true, but this is going to be really cool for a lot of you therapists listening. Emma is with a group called she's the founder of a group called Unchaos Living and we will link all of this at the end of the episode. You'll know exactly how to find out more about her, but we're going to hear the really good stuff here today. Um so Emma, thank you so much for being here. I know you've got a really specific passion for fixing the infrastructure layer of the mental health landscape. Mhm. Tell us a little bit about how that issue became apparent to you in the first place.

Um sure. Thank you, Jessica. Um it actually started with my own journey because um I was kind of trying to navigate my own career path in this field and uh everywhere I looked it was so fragmented or so confusing or just completely chaotic. Um and then I started talking to more and more therapists and the more I talked to people, I realized that I was not the only one facing it. It was actually a very widespread problem and for some reason as a group, we have kind of become very okay with letting it be that way. Like we've tried, but it's so fragmented that there is barely anything anyone can do at a huge level. People are obviously they're trying. There's so many groups out there. There are so many initiatives out there that are talking about fixing one particular part of the infrastructure, but it's more of a systemic problem than a individual problem, I think at this point.

And so, I also started with that own view in mind that, "Okay, this needs to be fixed, but let's take it one step at a time." So, I was moving or like rather I am moving from Berlin to Dublin for my practice. And during this chaos, because I'm I have to like set up my practice in Dublin now, I need credentials in Ireland that allow me to practice. Or what kinds of trainings do I need in Ireland to be able to qualify as a therapist? It was just so confusing and that kind of led me into thinking that, "You know what? More therapists just like me to get into a room and talk about it." So, that's why I started on Chaos Living and that's basically what I'm doing. It started with actually a bunch of friends. Just three people and my uni friends and we're like, "You know what? I need to talk about this case."

And so, we got together on like a normal Zoom call and we tried talking about it and it worked. I was like, "Maybe there are other people who need this as well, you know?" So, yeah, it started it slowly built from there and today I think two months down the line, we're like a good decent community of 20 to 25 people and I think it's it's not where I want it to be yet, but it's a good starting point. So. I think you are putting some pressure on yourself because from what I have read and understood about what you're doing, you're really on your way to making a huge change. I want to hear more about the different kind of paths that that people might have to get support with you. I know there some different circles. Right now, it's just we're piloting one kind of circle. We're just getting people together and we're talking about our cases. so it's 75 minutes bi-weekly.

Two people, two therapists, present their cases. Doesn't actually have to be a case as well. It can also be a feeling that they're sitting with or, you know, like a dilemma that about practice or about themselves in practice, you know? Anything about the work that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsettled, you can bring that to the group. And then we talk about it in a space which is not performing excellence or not trying to be very professional, where we're okay with just saying things the way they are. For example, we had somebody in our first group, that was the pilot group itself, telling us that they had this incident where suddenly they the therapist kind of fainted in the room. And she just didn't know what to do. And that's kind of that's the kind of thing you don't actually get to hear in supervisions or even peer groups and stuff, right?

Well, that's when it happens and you're like, "Oh my god, where was this in my book?" Exactly. They didn't mention this could happen. And she was also the same way and she was just like, "I don't know what else to do and I'm I think my client is also wondering what's wrong with her." But she came to the group and all of us, the minute she shared it, all of us were just like, "Oh damn, that happened. Like, what? And then immediately I saw like a shift where people were like, "It's fine, you're human." And that's That's yep. Yeah, it just She probably didn't even necessarily need to hear, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, that what she should have done, but more the collective oh my goodness. That is such a reassurance of oh, okay, you guys wouldn't know what what to do either. Exactly, yeah.

And that's exactly what happened, but then there were there were some really good insights that she got out of it, which was like, somebody told her that, well, you know what? So, the client basically she was with had this tendency of taking care of others and ignoring their own needs, and then she fainted in the room. So, it was kind of like the client taking on the provider's role. And so, she was very disturbed by, oh my god, how is this going to affect my relationship with my client? And then somebody in the group came out and they were like, you were online and you fainted and then you set a boundary. So, it actually taught your client something important about setting boundaries as well. And it was such an insightful, oh my god, moment that I don't think anybody would have thought about.

And that's the kind of things that we are aiming for in this group. If you go out there, there are 10,000 supervision groups, there are 10,000 peer circles going on, right? But there needs to be a place where you can just come and be yourself without the pressure of oh my god, these are my colleagues and how am I going to, you know, display myself for them? That kind of Are they going to want to refer to me? Exactly, yeah. And I just referred a client there a couple of days ago. So, it's still happening and I now see that there are people joining from like links that I've put on the group saying that, hey, is this I I saw online, this is a place where I can talk about something I really need help. And it just makes me really happy that, okay, yes, I think people are finding Of course, there are dormant as well.

There are dormant everywhere. But like the people who actually need it are finding their way. And I think after we had enough people who feel like they belong, it becomes or blooms into something more beneficial for everyone, you know? So, that's the Absolutely. hope, that's the dream. And And this is So, you can be anywhere. In the world. blue boy Yeah. So, the first one that we started, we had people joining from around six countries. Um and we have time zones across six countries. Uh and right now, I think we have people from all over the globe in the group actually. From America, from Somebody from Japan joined uh a couple of days ago. There's people all over Europe um and like people from India. There's people from everywhere. So, there's like around nine or 10 nationalities already on the group and it's like Wow. really crazy to see how many people throughout the world actually need this.

And even though there's like so many things available, people are still always looking, which is really weird to me. It seems like though this theme I I feel like that is so applicable to everything right now. There are so many groups for this. There are so it with any literally anything. Yeah. Not not not just mental health related to the helping profession. No, actual So many options. It becomes paralyzing, I think, to people. And I imagine that when people are seeking out a type of support group, whether it be supervision, peer support, different other creative options that have come out like what you're providing. Yeah. How do I know that I'm going to meet the criteria for this? And it seems like you were really eliminating all those like we talk about all these barriers to care, you know, Yeah. all say that we're we're working on removing barriers to care and I know we all are, but you're removing the barrier to providers getting the support they need.

Well, I'm trying to, I would say, because I just started. But the idea is that I don't want this to be another thing that you're like, "Oh my god, I need to do this for my, you know, professional development." Or I need to do This is just for you to be you. This is a space that holds you, right? The barriers to entry are practically nothing at this point. Like I don't even discriminate between, oh, do you have like a practicing client or not? Like are you just a student or a fresh grad? Absolutely, come join. Come see what other people are doing. Learn already because there's another major pitfall of our profession that is you constantly need to know what to do, but nobody kind of teaches you how to do it unless you know how to do it. Like you need experience for experience and it just is this annoying loop that goes on and on and you're always struggling.

So, I did like this small experiment of sorts where I just like randomly put up an email saying I want to talk to 50 therapists about their journeys. I just put like a Google link and I had so many people schedule calls with me. I spoke to each and every one of them. It was supposed to be for 30 minutes, but I think everyone gave me almost 90 to 75 minutes somewhere around that time because they just wanted to talk and I was all of yours. And everybody said the same thing that we had to find our own internships out of college. We didn't know what to do the minute we graduated. We spent so much on CPD and getting our degrees and getting supervision and getting our own therapy. It was way more than what we paid for the education in the first place. And that thing never stops. Just keeps going on and on and on.

And I'm pretty sure that there are so many therapists out there who want to do these things um They probably want to go for PhD programs or, you know, they want to go for further specialized trainings and stuff like that, but they cannot afford it because they're so busy running up to the previous debts that they've already collected and the worst part is that you don't even get paid enough to support that. We think that oh my god, you're a therapist, you charge like $170 an hour, you charge 80 euros an hour. But well, I have to pay half of it. Like I take home peanuts and even if I end up charging more to someone, I feel guilty because well, that person is already struggling and now they have to pay me. But like I'm here because I studied and this is my job. I care about people, but I also need to look after me and my family, right?

Absolutely. And thinking about I'm sure furthering your education, getting additional credentials, I'm sure that fear is still there for so many people of oh god, well, what is that going to come with that I don't know about yet. You know, being in private practice, what a rude awakening for so many people of the different hats that you have to wear. And then thinking like want to get an additional credential or degree, but what is that going to come with that they're not going to have a course on to talk to me about it. Even if you want to like do something new or even like, you know, get licensed, for example, it's when I was actually moving to Dublin, I wanted to get licensed with either like the Psychological Society of Ireland or like the BPS or something. And then that's when I found out that it's actually like a membership thing.

And then you have to keep paying them year on year. It's not like a one-time license that you're done with. Like no, you need to prove to them every year that you're still polishing and still upskilling in order for them to keep you around. And what I understand why it is in place, I also understand the need for it, but I just feel like there should be this added sponge to kind of soak up the unpleasantness around it if that's a word. And it's just like Absolutely. There's There must surely must be an easier way, it seems like. Yeah, true. Like for example, I did my degree, I did my masters in Berlin, and now I have to fill another 30 pages to prove why it was equivalent in educational system of Ireland. And it's the same globally. Like I also talked to most of the therapists about this. And they all said the same thing, that we essentially have the same knowledge, you know, imparted to us.

Maybe like the modality might be a little different, but we're still all studying the same thing, essentially. But there is no global sort of credential that can allow you to I think even in the states, like every state has a different licensing law and credentialing system and things like that, right? It's the same in Europe. Like I I spoke to a therapist from Serbia. She was a psychotherapist, but she couldn't practice as a psychotherapist because the country does not recognize psychotherapy. And so she's doing something else. She's calling herself like the title is something different, but essentially what she does is psychotherapy. So you have to find these loopholes by herself and then kind of navigate it. And you were not taught about any of this. You were not taught business. You were not taught how to run a practice Okay. while you were educating yourself with your degree.

And now the first thing you have to do is not do client work, but figure out how to market yourself, how to get referrals, how to get networks, how to get, I don't know, invoices done, and like 10,000 different things which you probably need a different degree for at this point, [clears throat] right? Not to mention a bit, almost offensive, I'm sure, to people who have gotten the highest degree in their country or what have you, just to hear, "Oh, well, you have to prove it here." Like, really prove to us that you did this and you know what you're talking about. Absolutely, yeah. It's just such a slap in the face sometimes. Like, the work that I do with my clients, I can see that they are benefiting from it. They are It's helping them. They're completing therapy and then they're going out and they're self-sustaining and they're living the life that they deserve and all of that.

And I made that happen in some way or at least supported them. But then I look back at my own community and I'm like, "Oh, but well, do you have the so-and-so paper to prove it?" And I'm like, "What? I have a person to prove it. Doesn't that count?" But right, what about all this work that I've done, the successful work that I've done? It almost reminds me of when you're in graduate school choosing, you know, do I want to do do a general counseling program or do I want to do marriage and family therapy or do I want to do school counseling? I remember agonizing over that decision and looking at the curriculum and seeing, well, most of the courses are the same. Can't there be something easier? I know, of course, there's going to be a different licensure and certification, but there's so much overlap.

You are covering the same material and it really is such a shame that we can't make that universal. And then we'd be helping so many more people. At ReachLink, we believe that mental health care should meet you where you are, literally and emotionally. Whether you're navigating stress, burnout, relationships, or life transitions, you don't have to do it alone. With the ReachLink app, you can connect with licensed therapists through secure, convenient telehealth sessions on your time, from your space. No commute, no waiting rooms, just real support when you need it most. And for the therapist listening, if you're passionate about making care more accessible, if you want the flexibility to work from anywhere while focusing on what matters most, your clients, ReachLink is growing. We're building community of dedicated, compassionate clinicians who are ready to expand their impact through telehealth.

So, whether you're seeking support or ready to provide it, join us at ReachLink. Download the app or learn more at reachlink.com because better mental health should always be within reach. That's true. Like right now, I think most of the clinics, I don't know about everywhere else, but I know in Germany especially, there are a lot of clinics that have like 6-month waitlist for patients. Even in Vienna and stuff where like I did my internship, there were people waiting for 6 to 8 months just to get like the first consult with therapist. And we had like seven, eight people working in the clinic. And I'm like, you can do more. And I was in training, so of course I wasn't allowed to kind of take one-on-one patients or anything, which is fine. But at the same time, to think about therapist mental health at that point, like they're already filled with cases.

They don't have time. They're already running overboard. And plus there are people waiting. And if only the things were made a little easier in our systems, maybe we could have more people attend to them because based on my research with a lot of other therapists, I also found out that people are actually willing to pay a little less, even if they get an early practitioner. Because it's fine for them. They're so desperate for help. It doesn't matter to them if they have like 10 degrees or not. Like as long as they can help. I'm just right. Right, I don't care about your credential, just me. Like most of the clients that I have, none of them have ever asked me like what did you study or what degree do you hold? Because they don't care. They just know like can you help me with my anxiety problem or can you help me you know control my addiction?

But they don't care about anything else. It's also so weird that some places or some countries rather, they keep changing laws or some just don't. Like both of them are in the extremes. So for example in India, we only have one body but then uh they keep changing their requirements and eligibility criteria every year or every two years and stuff. So it's like every new batch that comes out, fresh graduates, they're again dealing with the same issue. In some places, maybe like Ireland or something, Coru has been planning to they're going to pass like a psychotherapy law which is supposed to make life easier for psychotherapists to get recognized. But then it's been in planning for the past 20 years. This year or like right now, they're the closest to finalizing and kind of putting it out. So 20 years is a very long time.

Like it's it's a crazy My career is done at that point. Yeah, I mean Let's help the next generation. Hopefully, yeah. So that's the thing that's we need to address these problems at a very systemic level because the practitioners are well aware of it but we're so bogged down by the system that we have no other option but to adhere to it if you want to practice legally. I think everyone listening can probably very much agree that this is an issue and such a blatant barrier. I know that you've had really a lot of success with this group that you recently piloted. Where do you see this going? What is the point with your program would you feel like all right, we've got people taken care of. Where do you see things progressing with the service that you're offering? What's your dream for it? It's a great idea.

I'm probably miles and miles away from it, but what's in my sight is that therapist that join my platform, I don't ever want them to go hunting for clients. I want every time they come to me, I want to give them clients. Like not even ask for me. Like they don't have a case load, I want to give it to them and I don't want to charge them. I want this to be like a therapist first platform. There's enough things that we have to pay for already. But I have also because like right now what I'm running is a free pilot. So I have seen that even as therapist, we don't really value it, right? Just the way our reduced fee clients don't value like the reduced fee. Anything free doesn't come with our values. So maybe like a very minimal fee just to like be a part of the platform or like to be in the community.

But other than that like the benefits that you have, they should be far 10 times more valuable than what you pay. It should actually be the source of your survival or your income or your livelihood or whatever it is that you call it, right? So you shouldn't have to worry about oh my god, what am I going to do when this client goes? Do I need to spend more on marketing? Do I need to you know, invoicing or more admin tasks and things like that. I'm not saying I'm going to do them for you. You still make your own clinical notes and stuff, but I'm saying that you don't need to worry about where your next client comes from. Because I want to just sort that out for you. There are agencies, there are so many institutes that already have them. They have access to it and they're supposed to help you.

So I want to kind of build a place for therapist where it's it's kind of like a sanctuary in my mind, right? Like you come, you're thirsty, you you just drink from the pool, and then go back hydrated. And you focus on what you've learned to do. Not the things that you have to learn so that you can do the things that you love. Uh most of us come into this field due to either a personal motivator or something that has happened to you that made you realize the importance of it. It's a sacred environment, so to say. So, to be able to express yourself the way you want with your client, have that sacred relationship without the worry of am I being salesy right now? Am I being pushy if I ask for money? I want to increase my fee, but what will they think about me? No, don't worry about that. Just do what you're here to do, rest will be taken care of.

So, it is I want it to be a very therapist-first platform. How large do you see the groups? I think that I I've seen on your social media Yeah. when I've looked into all of this, it seems like the preference is to be a bit smaller and more perhaps intimate. Yeah. Is that accurate? That is. Um but at the same time, uh because we're right now in our pilot phase, uh I'm also talking more uh one-on-one with the people who attend these groups to get feedback uh and to design it the way they need it, right? Um so, a few people say that maybe we should aim for like six or seven people in a group, not just four or five, uh to be able to get more diverse perspectives, and in case somebody drops out last minute, things like that. Keep it more open so that we get to meet more people and things like that.

So, we're still iterating, and we're still trying to figure out uh how to best provide or deliver this because I did a lot of research and I couldn't find people who are actually trying to build something from therapist point of view. People are building it from like business point of view or from client point of view. Or if they are and if they're watching, please reach out to me. I would love to talk. But, yeah, as far as I know, I don't think there's a lot of people focusing from the therapist lens. So, I want it to be intimate enough so that everyone can feel heard, but it shouldn't go so wide that it's blown apart and like everybody feels lost and it just becomes another dormant community that you're a part of but never, you know, contribute to. Also, I'm not very mindful about saying that if you don't contribute to it or if you're not like actively either seeking out support or giving support or this in any any capacity being there for your fellow therapist, I will kick you out.

Like I will. There's no space for that because we really want people who understand what it means or what it feels to have your brethren. That's what I'm trying to provide. So, if you're not there when someone needs you in the group, then well, what use are you? So, no. Good. And and the members the people participating that that seems like something that is owed to them. Absolutely. Exactly. It's for you. And if you RSVP and then don't show up or kind of just sit around in the group just to see like, oh, people are doing stuff. Let them do it, but I'm too busy or like I understand when you don't have the energy to log in to another video call. I absolutely get that. But, it doesn't take too much. It just takes like Guys, I'm sorry. It's too hard today. I can't. And that's what this is for though, it seems like.

That's for people that are feeling like, "Oh my gosh, I don't I know I should do this, but I I don't have it in me to log in to another video." It seems like that is exactly for those people. You feel that way, that's why you should log in because I don't That's expected. in your jammies or if you're lying on your bed eating popcorn while you're on the call. Like I don't care about your tardiness or your cleanliness or how you're presenting yourself. Although most people do show up from their workspaces, I guess, at this point, but it doesn't matter. Like it's your space. If you like walking around in shorts, go ahead, do that. Like if you want to I don't know, be cozy up, do that. Whatever helps you. Like it doesn't matter. But I'm I probably want to do like in-person versions of this as well at some point in the future because I think it would just be nice to see everyone and like connect.

What happens in person doesn't happen online. I I know. It's true and everybody knows that. So, Yeah. Yeah. Probably starting in Dublin sometime this year. Well, we will be on the lookout for that. You know what I just realized that I think is a perfect kind of full circle to all of this and I I didn't even ponder this our whole conversation. I know I wondered about this when we first connected and you were going to come on the podcast and then as I learned more about you, this totally left my mind including during this entire conversation. I don't know where you're located and I want I want to know, but I think that's such a cool realization that I don't even know where you are and it doesn't matter. Yeah. But where are you? So, right now I'm in India with family. Right now I'm in India transitioning to Dublin.

My partner lives in Dublin and I'm moving countries. Right now I'm just like all over the place. Like I I honestly, every time people ask me where I'm from, I kind of never know what to answer because I am from all over the place. I was born in Mumbai in India. I was brought up in Bangalore. I'm married like now I live somewhere in Gujarat in North India. Like I call Berlin my home. And now I'm moving to Dublin. But then in the middle somewhere I was enjoying life in Budapest and Vienna. And so those are also very close to my heart. So I feel like I'm everywhere. And in fact I had I had a friend who wished me this year saying that hey, I don't know where you are at this point and I hope it's 12:00 a.m. wherever you are. And happy birthday. And I just felt like I wanted life, you know? Some people don't know.

They're just probably guessing I'm in some other time zone. And I think it's the best thing ever. But I think that kind of gives credence to this whole mission of yours. That okay, how do I answer this? You know, physically I'm right here now, but but I think that's the bigger picture that that's not what what matters in this. It doesn't matter where you're from because like again all of us therapists are based globally. We're there in every country, every city all across the globe. And yet we're facing the same problem. For some weird reason the same problems connect all of us. So if I am trying to solve the problem I don't think that connection should be any barrier. There's a very common denominator of similar issues, the same issues. And yet there is such a disconnect in support with that.

There is It sometimes just feels like we're all working towards the same thing and if only we kind of aligned our powers, we would be that much more successful, but we're so busy trying to figure things out on our own because well Yeah, you need to you know, put food on the table or whatever. It's a bit difficult, but hopefully people find Un_Chaos and try to actually Un_Chaos. Well, we definitely want to help with that. So, I'm so glad that you came on because I think you really are shedding light on something that that we just simply do not talk about and the universality of it is so important. So, I really want to get the word out about what you're doing. So, that will be the goal. Um everyone listening, please follow along for Emma's information. I suspect that she will be so glad to hear from you and we just need more more people sharing their common or not common issues that they're running into in this similar landscape that we're in.

Um so, thank you so so much for being here. Thank you everyone for listening. Much more to come. I have a strong feeling about uh I really want to make sure that we especially link your Instagram account because I think that is its own animal almost of what you're standing for. So, we will make sure everyone can find Emma and we'll hope to have you back on here soon. Absolutely, I would be honored to. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. We'll talk to you guys next time.