Learning to Sit With Discomfort

Hello and welcome to Therapist Voices at Reach Link. Reach Link is a digital mental health counseling platform. My name is Jesswitz and I oversee Reach Link's network of amazing providers. Throughout the course of our podcast, listeners will get to meet all sorts of professionals from the mental health field. Today is our very, very first episode and I'm thrilled to be joined by Reach Link's own Leslie Moya. Leslie is a licensed clinical social worker licensed in California, Colorado, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Texas, and Virginia. Leslie also happens to be an amazing human being as well as a major animal enthusiast. Leslie, what we're talking about today is something that is really crucial in the therapy space, something that many, many therapists struggle with, possibly everyone's least favorite practical lesson in grad school, sitting with discomfort.

So, I'm going to go ahead and sit in my own silence and discomfort. Let the expert join in here. Leslie, talk to us a little bit about learning to sit with discomfort in a therapeutic sense. Yes. Uh I think we all struggle with this. And in my field, we call it the writing reflex where we want to chime in and save the day. And we don't want people to be uncomfortable ourselves, right? We want to behave if you're sad, if you're mad, if you're hurt, if anything, right? We want to we want to chime in. And a lot of times when we try to fix it, we may get it wrong and people feel dismissed. They feel you're not listening to me, you're not hearing me. And it's true. So the power of sitting still and not only not speaking, but also on our mind because a lot of times we're hearing something and we're formulating already.

I'm going to say this, I'm going to say that. And we don't hear the full message. Sometimes we want a cheerleader. Sometimes we want a soundboard. Sometimes we want comfort. Advice. No advice. So the power of sitting still applies across the board. Be uncomfortable. We get to sit with people. We get to sit with people in their space. You know that saying um misery loves company. I like to take sayings and turn them around on their head and say misery loves company. I'm miserable. I don't want you to be miserable. Your your warmth, your essence. That would soo me. I don't need you to do a thing. Um can I just cry and have you here? You know, and that's my way of saying misery loves company. I'm I feel I don't feel great right now. I just want your presence, but I don't want you to feel this way.

So, don't worry about it. Don't take it in. You don't have to do anything. And I do think that's one of the most beautiful things we can do for people. Let me just provide presence if that's all we can do so much. So I think it's quite loving, right, to know that we can sit still and that is so much for somebody. Talk about feeling like you're the sun, you know, of if that's all you need from me, okay? You know, all you got to do is breathe. So that's just on the dayto-day. Is this something that was always easy for you? Did this come naturally for you? No, no, no, no, no. I think it was so hard that writing reflex. And I'll be very honest. If you saw, I was already doing this before you even finished because I still struggle with it. And it comes from a place of care. It comes from a place of care.

And I I still struggle with it. Um, every day it's learning. If I'm uncomfortable, the other part to that is this. Am I answering for your comfort or for mine? When I think about it that way, I'm like that that kind of stung. And that's okay if we can look at inwards, right? To say um h if I can sit still longer and that's just in therapy. I I worked palotative for eight, nine years. I'm not too sure. hospice for another eight, nine years. And this is when I first saw the power of it where the nurses say, "Can you go tell them this? Can you go tell them that?" And I would say, "Why aren't you telling them that? You they see you every day. They care about you." And they would say, "I don't want to see them cry. It hurts me." I'm like, "It doesn't hurt me. I like them a whole lot, too." Doesn't it come better from somebody that cares about you?

And I do think also that well I'm going to cry. I think if you care for me and you're crying letting me know these bad news, you're there with me. You care for me and you'll be warmer to me than somebody who even if they're well intended um they don't tell me this. I've seen where doctors don't tell people they're terminal and the person doesn't know and when you say doc why didn't you say that oh I like them too much that would have been hard I'm like but they get to know it's they're terminal and they have a life expect a limited life expectancy and they get to live out their life how they want to and prioritize and it's it's hard and it's a way to love them too to to care to respect and say you you get to do what you on what what a secret to keep when when I see it from that from that angle that's where I really opened my eyes to the power of discomfort and that has made it easier to sit in discomfort.

I know it's very extreme sense but it makes it easier for me to formulate my mind. What given given what you're explaining, what would you say is something that you would what would you tell another therapist that maybe was new to the field, struggling with this? I struggled with this severely. In my personal life, that's, you know, another story. And then that carries over into your skills as a therapist. You can certainly separate it, but it doesn't make it any easier if you are not someone that can sit and not feel like you need to take that person's feelings and take them on and and make everything better. What would you tell someone that's just starting out that's feeling like, "Oh my goodness, I couldn't possibly sit with that. I need to say something." What would you tell them to try? practicing sitting in discomfort in our personal life, right?

It becomes a like a knee-jerk response, right? So automatic and then the discomfort wears off a little. Not not as in it feels great. We we just um kind of like pain tolerance, you know, where we're more we're more tolerant to the discomfort. I'm gonna say the way a a colleague said it to me. When we get in the way of their journey, of their growth, even those words, I was like, "Whoa, whoa, I already know where you're saying where you're going. Go ahead. Go ahead." She says, "We do what we can. We put in our part, but just sitting still because it gives them space." And I could hear better. I could hear their full sentiment. It It can sound one way. Words like and or but. So if they're saying I felt good but or I felt sad but I also it's oh they're actually trying to say this. So even letting somebody finish the sentence they can cancel it out in the sentence versus and all those things are powerful.

So when we sit still you're empowering. You're letting them name it which is really tough. Our our emotional vocabulary is so limited. I have a [clears throat] beautiful worksheet that talks about it's pages long about emotions and it breaks it down and I'm always impressed and I love it because we have very limited vocabulary that we use. Not that it's not there that that we use and we're empowering people. We're letting them access their own their own bits versus just giving it to them. And you know how they say you know you can take the horse to drink water but you can't make them drink that type of thing. It it allows them their autonomy. It allows them to well this word that word and we'll still get the point. Is the idea of sitting with silence is that does that tie in here? Is that part of sitting with with discomfort?

Yes. Because that's a hard one for me. 100%. Because we're nervous. Yeah. We're nervous and this is where it comes from where if we're silent typically we're sad, we're thinking or are they mad? Are they sad? Are they this? Are they? And we're trying to comfort. You don't want them to feel like that. Yeah. Or they don't care if we're thinking about something. It's and that person's anxious. By the way, if I'm formulating my response and it's like, well, she's waiting and I'm like, we we don't want them to feel discomfortable. So sitting in silence, it doesn't mean if I don't have something to say or if it's inappropriate, we're not going to be quiet. We're not talking about that. We're talking when we're thinking, you know, hey, you just told me I hurt your feelings. It's like, wow, let me take that in.

Like, okay, let me ask questions. Let let me Okay. And how could I have said it better? What was it about it about what I said? Was it my tone? Was it my body language? What? You know, probing it also lets us in their mind. And I think that's also amazing because now I'm in your world. How do you see the world? And that helps me also get proactive. If you take this or that as offensive, okay, that's how you see it. That was not my intent. We have a beautiful conversation and I start meeting you on a different level now. Now it's intimate because I'm I'm in your brain and that means that I see the world through your eyes a little bit. Just a little bit as good as it gets. So I think it also goes into into intimacy. Intimacy is not only physical. It's um those shared spaces with our best friend, our family, co-workers, colleagues, everybody.

So that's why I also think it's not only about listening, which that's powerful enough. Now you're really getting to know this person in their words, not mine, their words, because words mean something to you. A hi versus a hello. Beautiful. Both of them. There's nothing wrong with either. But now I know that you like a hi versus a hello. I remember many many years ago when I was a young girl, the first time I ever went to counseling, I remember I had this therapist and I I didn't want to go. I was in 8th grade. I had issues. I didn't want to go. I was upset at my mom. She wanted me to get some help. I needed to talk to someone. this this therapist, while she was wonderful at her job, she took sitting with silence to such an extreme and I I knew what she was doing even at a young age. I knew that this was a technique and I just it was so clear to me that it wasn't being done right.

And I remember just picking a corner of the room to stare at hoping, can this stop? Can someone say something? And that has always stuck with me, even in my education with counseling, that has always stuck with me as something that really, you know, hey, this can be a really powerful tool, the silence, and she just did it wrong. You know, she just didn't didn't nail it and it was really an opportunity to ask me about it. And I I always think about that. Yeah. I get this image of putting an iceberg between us in that instance. And that's why I say staying quiet. We don't not on purpose. It's am I listening or am I already responding? And it it's you got to fine-tune it and practice, right? So if somebody says, "I'm upset even that, right? Like I'm so upset at you." And just listen like, "Okay."

And letting them finish, right? And it steams out. They to make it better. Interrupting them and making to make it better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know that. Which makes it worse. No, I didn't get to finish talking actually. Yeah. And they they finish even if it's redundant. Okay. Okay. Okay. You know, and just when they're done, they're like, "Okay." And you're like, "Okay, can I say something?" more, you know, we just check the temperature and and that's more powerful. Um, kids are hard. Kids are hard to begin with, you know. Um, yesterday I heard a kiddo in the background, teenager. After I finished talking to the mom, she says, "I like her." And I'm like, you know what a compliment because kids are hard. Um, there there's so much going on in the world. And I think that we forget that.

So, I think when there's silence, we can we can probe in kind ways and try to make it safe. Um, then I go into I've been on this kick about talking about safety in the body. Um, or safety period, right? If if it's safe, then we can feel it. So, if that was uncomfortable, that's not safety, right? It's like it's so sterile, you know? It's so sterile. So, even being able to have some sort of comfort, you know, I usually um uh I'm in my room today uh in a space, but I usually have, you know, different colored walls. See what's you know, let me try this. I can see this. I can see that. Or I'm usually drinking coffee. I already finished my coffee, that's why I'm not drinking it. But just whatever feels has the person feel safe. Sometimes their pets come in. I'm like, bring them in. They're like, "I'm sorry."

Like, "Don't be." It's about creating that. It's such a fine balance and we never finish learning. We never finish growing. I don't like to use those absolutes. I do think it's very appropriate to say we never finish. If we do, we're dangerous because we think we got it all figured out. We're all so different. Something that I know about you and from our conversations that we've had, I know what a lifelong learner you are. I I've gleaned that you are so curious and so passionate about helping people. That is without a doubt. And that has just always stuck out to me so much about you that you I don't think that you will ever ever stop learning, getting more experiences, um being faced with a difficult client. I think those are all just things that you seem to really take take under your wing and you know these are these are going to be things that you deal with.

And I just knew that you had to have some had some technique or great skill that's really gotten you through that any discomfort, any silence, um meeting the client. I know it sounds so cliche when we say meeting the client where they are, but is there anything more important than that? I don't I think that in every sense of the way we just want to be seen at at at the at the basics of of anyone. We just want to be seen. And if we notice our not so great behaviors, our great behaviors are all about being seen. If great behaviors haven't gotten us there, you know how the the kid that's always doing stuff gets the front seat because I gotta watch you. If we learn that, um, I like to say not on purpose, meaning I'm I'm aware of it, but on purpose back here, our our system has learned this, then we tend to go to those behaviors like not helping our health.

Why? Why are we doing that? Because I got attention. And again, we're not doing it consciously necessarily. So, we all just want to be seen. And it's lifesaving. A hello is life-saving to people. I've heard it. I've heard it before where they where people will share just that hello from that one stranger that day. That's all we want. We want connection. We are pack animals. And it drives all of our behavior. That's how we're programmed. We're pack animals. We're not meant to be alone. That's why when we hear of the hermit or that person over there, we're like because it because it's taboo. We are not meant to be lonely creatures. Uh we are pack animals. Survival of the fittest. So being seen, think about it. If nobody sees me, am I invisible? And we start we we stop. We think we stop feeling purpose.

And that's where we get desperate. So meeting people where they're at to me is the same as seeing them is as simple as a hello. To some people it may be annoying. to others. It's it it's life saving. I I think it's the best gift we can give people out of all of them. Then there's empathy. Then there's sympathy and then everything else. That's that's wonderful. I think that that has to be what you bring to your sessions. It's got to be because everyone loves you. Um, I I would and have referred my family, my friends to you. Anyone that that's really looking to again be met where they are to be heard, to be seen, to be able to show up with whatever wherever you are in that moment. And that's that's what it is. That's what I'm showing up with. And that's okay. and that I know of you just having our phone conversations and and being able to laugh with you and talk about how your your work is going.

That's just something that I know I know to be very important for you and a really huge huge benefit of a client seeing you. And when we go to sit to the sitting in discomfort, even hearing that feedback that I I want to be for everybody, trust me, because I just want to help. I And and I also want to say that I don't think I can fix the world. I don't. And I and I don't want to. I think part of our journey is is to go through our trials and whatever I can do to support that, of course, right? I I do want to be a part of that. I'm not pretending I can fix because I don't think anybody's broken. I think we all just need fine-tuning and all that good stuff. I don't think anybody's broken. I think everybody's smart. I don't think there's dumb people out. I just don't I don't believe in that. Listening right to the things that people haven't been a fan of.

It allows me to fine-tune. Hm, I read that wrong because something I do personally in my mind, I'm going through that session and I'm saying, "Oh, I could have stayed quiet. I just said this yesterday. I'm sorry I talked so much because this topic was so important. I haven't seen you in 2 months and you're struggling and I want to give you all the literature and and education and I'm like we can go over because I no no no no this was helpful I needed this and I'm like I'm so sorry next time I'm mindful of that that and and I'll say I'm monopolized I'm sorry and they're like no no no no I this is so useful because of course I'm checking in I keep that in my mind to say h and I did I reviewed it and though I didn't like it if I don't see her for another two months. I gave her the tools. Yes.

So I do balance it and I think at that point I don't feel I could have done it different. Now I do see that it is uncomfortable but that is the power. I don't like but and and the [clears throat] power of being uncomfortable is let's have that talk and let me sit with it and I not maybe not right now. I and I will later on like okay okay I'm not being attacked. This is for growth. I do want to help and I'm not for everybody. That has I couldn't even say that before. I can say it now and say I'm not for everybody. All I can hope for is that I don't turn you off of therapy. And I' I know I've said that to you where and it does. It breaks my heart. And don't cry, don't cry because I think that that therapy is so powerful and so good and it's worth looking for the right therapist because sometimes we trigger each other.

We're just human. We're just human and we may trigger each other. It may not be our styles. I do welcome people to say, "Hey, if something doesn't work, let me know." It is my job to adjust to you. It is. It fully is. It's not your job. It's mine. We're shy. We're shy. We We don't And that's okay. Um I And I've told you like all I want is that I didn't turn them off of of therapy. Please. Please. You know, it's okay. It's still hard. I still want to, you know, work with everybody worse. Yeah. Do you feel like it's very different, let's say, video counseling versus in-person counseling how you used to do or how you might still, but would you say it's a very different element doing video counseling with all of the sitting with dis discomfort, sitting with silence? Is that harder or easier in a video session?

Easier for me. Easier. I am very um before I became a therapist, my mentor who oh my gosh um I just think he's just amazing. Of course, um he saw me as a therapist first. I I didn't see myself as a therapist. I saw the work he did and I thought there's no way I can do that. I'm not that amazing. I'm not I mean there's no way. And he saw it. What I do know about myself is that um I I tend to have a good read on people within 5 seconds. And that doesn't mean I judge all of it. It's like they're nervous, they're anxious, that type of that's what I'm talking about. And [clears throat] so for me personally, it's easier because um I have this stone that I'm fidgeting with on the bottom over here and you can't see that. And that allows me to like sit still with it so that you don't see that I'm like white knuckling it, you know?

And then people, let's say they're like, "Hold on, go ahead, turn off your camera if that's okay." And then then they're like, "Let me just wipe my shoes." Go ahead. So they're more comfortable, safer, sometimes not. I in general, it it is easier to sit in discomfort because I'm fidgeting down here with with my rock over here while, you know, so that I could better allow them that space or mute myself where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh." You know, and I'm like, "Let me mute that." Oh, oh, oh. And okay, they didn't hear that. So I for that reason I do think that it's um better on on the opposite side. Some people it's not as easy to see. So maybe if we were in person I could feel you better, right? Like your body language and things cuz maybe they're fidgeting down here and I can't see it.

I think that's what a lot of people might have the feeling of when they're hesitant to try video counseling versus in-person counseling. You know, it it's not going to feel like I'm close to them. I'm not going to be able to feel connected and it seems like like providers like you have found ways around that that it isn't necessarily. So, there are benefits. We know there are benefits, but that those things that we might think are are negatives or things we're missing out on doing video counseling are not so necessarily. I remember this uh conversation in one of my I say my my previous lives, my one of my other jobs and we were talking about this topic about phone versus we didn't that type of job wasn't telephone, right? It was phone calls and they said, "Well, you know, we we're not in person so we can't hold their hand."

And I said, "I don't agree with that." Yeah. I think tone is the audio handholding. When I can't hold your hand, my tone can hold your space. When I say, "I'm so sorry that's happened to you versus I'm sorry." I can hear it in your voice. It's different. You feel connected. You feel that warmth. Yeah. So, I I and and I've said this before where you could say anything on this earth. It's the tone and how the words that we put together uh in that sentence along with body language of course, but let's say we're just on the phone. You can say anything. I've had very difficult conversations with people like try talking to people in their 80s about their sex life. Talk about discomfort. That is one to sit with. Yeah. Or not so with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't don't. Um Yeah. So I think once you get through certain difficult conversations that me you want me to talk to them about that why why don't you do it uh you're you're the social worker like you're their nurse practitioner like yay you get to do it I'm like so tone tone and I've had beautiful feedback I got to say this when I first started uh working with tella health I did not want to I love people I love people I want to be I want to feel them and again I want to help I want to help So what I what I learned and and I really appreciate this that we had people who didn't have the technology to get on a video.

So you have you know elderly or they don't have like the internet but they have a phone. So we were able I was able to work with amazing people that wanted the help and benefited from the help in amazing ways. We got somebody from being, you know, with ulcers on their legs, sitting on the couch, couldn't really get up to they're walking around all the way to their mailbox and back and their quality of life changed and they can move around now. And they would say, "I'm so glad I'm not on video." I'm like, "Why? I'd love to see your face." And they're like, "I'm ugly crying." And this is a gentleman, you know, an older gentleman. So I'm like, "I love that you're ugly crying with me." You know, and sometimes I cry with them. So I have loved it because we can still use tone and they're safe. I think the power of an elderly gentleman think of their generation where tough it out and don't you know so and he says I'm so glad I did this because I'm here ugly crying and I'm like you probably wouldn't have come back in person.

Nope. So I I learned about the power at that point. Wow. That's that's definitely a testament. I think that is probably something that you will always remember as you do this work and this becomes more of the norm. Yeah. Um, seeing the the benefit there, that's huge. And it really it really is true that doing this on video, it is you. We found ways to make it work. We found other parts of us to tap into your voice, your knowing how you sound, knowing that someone is just seeing this part of you and those other parts of you might need to be amplified a little bit because they're not there with you. Yeah. Um I just the session before this um we had been doing phone and his his computer um couldn't get the video and today um I was like I get to meet you. I feel like I'm I'm meeting you again and he could see me but I couldn't see him and and I said I got to say that you sound like you look and um perfect.

You know sometimes we don't sound like we look. So it it was amazing and and cuz he says I wish you could see me because you know thank you and I appreciate it and they're saying it. Um so so I could see it more and to me that's the reward if I can see that it was relieving like yeah versus was it frustration or relief. Um to me that's the reward of okay you feel better. Okay you're not just saying that okay I can do better. let me know what what not that it's your job to police me that's my job and right I I'd love the feedback so I have now come to love it because I can look at how many states I'm licensed in and I still got to work there's two more licenses I I I'd like to work on I had a feeling yeah I had a feeling you weren't done yeah no I've just been lazy but I got to get there um so we get to touch people that otherwise couldn't right I mean look at the weather right now so people are like I'm stuck at home So, yep, let's do therapy.

I love it that it keeps us productive, keeps us sane, keeps us healthy. So, I've come to love it. And I I do say this to people because they're like, "What do you think is better?" Like, "What do you think is best? Give it a go. We're all different. There's nothing wrong with having a preference for a male or a female therapist in this language or that language. There is nothing wrong with it. You got to feel safe. So, for whatever reason you prefer a male, go for a male. If you prefer a fe, go for there. There's no there's no wrong answer as long as it's your answer versus somebody telling you what it is. So I tell people someone else telling you. Yeah. Give it a go and if you want to do in person and you tried video then go in person. Nothing wrong with it. Yeah. Right. Definitely benefits benefits to both.

But we are certainly video counseling advocates here. I've seen some great things. some people that would never get access to amazing providers be able to call a number, click a button, you're connected with a licensed therapist. And that is just not the world that we're that we're necessarily in. Waiting on insurance lines, um trying to get to someone's office, they've got two offices. It's not where you live. Well, look at this. We're in the same state or a state where my provider is licensed. Yeah, that's a big one because I've had so many clients that are like, "Oh my gosh, you know, I got to get to work and this is perfect because I couldn't get to your office and get to work that's on on the other side of town or let me do this during my lunch hour or let me get to work." I have a lot of clients.

I got to work earlier. There's nobody here. I'm in my office and now I don't have to worry about traffic. So, it lends itself to we can do it. And most of us have to work. Most of us have to work for a living, not for just fun. I like to say I I get to do both at the same time, you know. Um [clears throat] so taking care of ourselves is important and finding the time and the place like my therapist is over there or not find I've heard this a lot. Hey, I've been looking for six months but nobody around me. Everybody's booked or they don't get back to me for whatever reason. So I found you. I'm like I'm glad. Let's do the work. And they're like thank heavens, you know. So I think that that's definitely the benefit. I want to say that that's one of the positives from co. It turned our world upside down and it opened this up so much.

Yeah, it's been life-saving, I think. Absolutely. You can say that again. As my daughter would say, that's when you're supposed to say the whole thing again. You're supposed to repeat it. Yeah, definitely. Well, Leslie, thank you so so much for being here. It's always so fun to talk to you. I can talk to you forever. I know I'm probably going to talk to you again later today because I want to bother you about something, but this was so great. I really appreciated hearing your perspective. I think this is something that is never going to go away for any provider. No matter how much they think they've they've tackled the sitting with silence, sitting with discomfort, there's going to be something. You can't get too good at that. There's always going to be something that's that's difficult and uncomfortable. And I think that you've given us some really good strategies to make to make that happen, to make that work, and to practice that. So, thank you a million and for being here. You are such a joy. Friends, thank you for listening. Again, I'm Jesswitz with Reach Link Therapy joined by LCSW, Leslie Moya, and we will see you soon. Thank you, Leslie. Thanks for having me.