Child-Centered Play Therapy and Why Most Clinicians Are Undertrained to Work With Kids

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at ReachLink. My name is Jessica Hurwitz, and I manage ReachLink's network of therapists. Today, I'm really excited. We have Dr. Jodi Mullen joining us. She is an LMHC and RPTS, Registered Play Therapist Supervisor. And then, Dr. Mullen, what is I noticed CCPT Master that I was unfamiliar with. What is that? So, that is a Child-Centered Play Therapist, and at the Master level, it just means that I can supervise people to become Child-Centered Play Therapists or to become Child-Centered Play Therapist Supervisors. I'm glad that that this came up actually, because I wanted to as we get into our conversation, I I want to talk a little bit more about like models that may exist with play therapy. So, I'm glad that the Child-Centered part came up. But, I wanted to ask you to share with us a little bit about how you got into working with kids.

How did that start? Did you always love kids? Tell us the truth. Um Well, I'll give you my origin story. So, um I thought I did, right? So, I thought that I wanted, when I was an undergrad, I thought I wanted to be a child psychologist. I was really like attracted to um how children navigate the world, and I took a child psychology course and thought it was boring, and um I got an A. I still got an A. I think that's important for everyone to know. Um I still do well in the course, but um I was like, "I don't know, right?" Um so, when I was looking for um my graduate education, I was really looking for like the practice. I know I wanted to be a clinician. And so, I went to like a really a generalist Master's degree program, and still still had that feel that I wanted to work with children. However, I was working in the field at the same time and I was working with children and they hated me and I hated them and I just I really don't know how else to say it.

It was terrible. Um and part of it is I had no idea what I was doing one because I mean I was still in graduate school, but I also didn't you know, had no course work, had no experience at working clinically with children and then in the field I was working with this manualized cognitive behavioral program that the the children hated and I just couldn't pull it off. So, um I decided I wasn't going to work with children and then um I had one more course to take in my graduate program. It was an elective. There was an elective being offered at a convenient time. That literally was the issue. A convenient time for me and it was in play therapy. Nobody knew who the adjunct professor was. It had never been taught before and I was like, whatever it's convenient. I took it after the first two and a half hour course I was like, this this is what I want and I literally took what I learned in the first two and a half hours and started implementing it with the children I was working with and saw a difference and so never turned back from that and so my doctoral studies and my clinical focus and um the things I write and talk about have remained focused on working with children and and play therapy.

That is so interesting to hear especially what we were just talking about right when we started started recording here. We were discussing how there's such a lack of in in some areas in more general areas or people that work with adults lack of of knowledge about how to work with children and I know that feeling you know, kids can smell anything I I You know, You cannot fool or trick with a child. They know right away. Yeah. They totally know. You can't You can't mess with them. And that I don't think is what everyone is thinking when they start working with children. And they I I remember doing some play therapy in my um my grad school days and looking at these kids and thinking, "Oh, they'll like me. You know, I like kids. They like They like me." No, they saw right through me. I felt like such an idiot.

It was not good. And I remember thinking, "Oh, this is why there are things like play therapy." Because we don't talk to Silly me, we don't talk to kids this the way we do we do as adults. But we don't have that. Like we don't have that embedded in our graduate programs or trainings. And so um most of the clinicians that um I work with uh through supervision and training are people They're not just new to the field. They're also people who are seasoned professionals who are like, "I don't know what I'm doing." Um and And I think, "How would you?" Like really, how would you know? Because our training, our focus uh in our graduate coursework, and even in our professional training programs like our professional development tends to be about working with adults. And that model It's never going to work when you're working with children.

I remember I remember a lot of like child development type classes, but they were just that, learning about child development. And that that is great to know, to understand, but how does that help anyone actually work with work with kids? They certainly don't care about how their brain is working at this age versus this age and what stage this is. Right. And so yeah, so how do you take that information, integrate, synthesize, and apply it to the clinical work, to the work that you're actually doing with children? And then I think the other piece of that is that when you're working with children, you're hardly ever just working with a child. You're also working with the systems that they're part of, their families, their schools. So, it's there's these multiple layers of being able to do the clinical work with children.

Now, how does your How does your practice work? I know you wear a couple of different hats and you work within the university. Tell us a little bit about that. Okay. So, I'm a counselor educator and have been for 30 years. Um the I teach in a graduate only program, so my students are only master's level students and they come from three different programs in our department. So, we have school psychology, school counseling, and mental health counseling. And so, 2/3 of those programs are programs that will only work with children, right? School counseling and school psychology. But, even in you you know, even in the program that I've been part of and had leadership roles in for 30 years is we don't the only designated course we have to working with children is an elective that I teach in play therapy.

That's it. This sounds familiar. This sounds like how you know Yeah. I mean, I I it's the experience that uh most people wind up having. Um and then often times courses that are taught by educators, counselor educators, about working with children, doesn't necessarily mean that you've had the clinical experience in working with children. I still work clinically. Um and so, I usually say to my students, I'm not telling you a story from work I did 25 years ago in the field. I'm telling you a story from yesterday. Right? So, um I think that, you know, that that's important too that that they know that what I'm teaching them and that would be true in working, you know, teaching, educating professionals and preparing professionals to work with children, too, is that what I'm teaching you isn't irrelevant now that it's 2026.

It still works with today's children who had to go through COVID, who, you know, are dealing with massive amounts of screen time and different kinds of relationships than with technology than when I started 30 years ago. That's a great point. I actually hadn't even thought about that that it's a different world in play therapy. So So you're working with with students, you're doing a lot of supervising, especially with these these two credentials that you have. In your practice, is it based in an office? Do you go into schools? Is it any video counseling? How does that work? Okay, so yes. Oh, perfect. All of that. So I I've worked as a school-based mental health professional before, you know, before. I see children. I also still work with teenagers and adults in office. So I still do that clinical work and I provide supervision to people all over the planet.

I do a little bit of virtual work. Most of my virtual work is with adults. Most of the telehealth work that I do is with adults, but I was like forced, you know, to make adjustments and figure out how to be a play therapist during COVID using telehealth. So I still have a couple of children on my caseload that I use telehealth. And that's really just for me, it's very much just broadening the means of connection that you use when you're doing telehealth. It's a very optimistic way to put it and I really appreciate that cuz I can't imagine. I can't imagine being these kids and I can't imagine being you with such such a pivot. How did How did it work with things like like sand tray therapy and and things like that? How would you virtually do I guess mom by a sand tray? Right, right. Well, Um, is actually there's a virtual sand tray um, that some that one of our colleagues created.

I know that some people use that and I did, you know, give that give that a go with some of the kids that I work with. Some of them we mailed them sand trays and had figures and were, you know, used it that way. Um, other times it's just the it was adopting, right? So, instead of saying like, I'd like you to use the sand tray to create a story or to create something that means something to you. It was like, I want you to take 5 minutes. You have 5 minutes to go on a scavenger hunt in your house and I want you to find at least five things that are super important to you and you'd like me to, you know, like me to see. So, it would be just that, you know, that pivot from child-centered play therapy or and I would say that I mostly do child-centered sand tray play therapy, but it was a you had to pivot from that in order to be able to make it work virtually.

And I think that that was the biggest challenges. I'm not directive in the work that I do. I would say even with teenagers and adults that I I come from a very humanistic background and so I'm a minimalist in terms of leading the session. But, in child-centered play therapy, I don't at all. And so, to figure out, okay, how do I do that? It was different with the children that I had already been working with in office. They just kind of they took off. They knew what to do. But, any children that I just started with or even today, any children that I start with virtually, but we've never met in person, there's a different feel to it. That's almost, I mean, easy for me to say as someone who wasn't in that boat, but I feel like that's almost a very cool part of it of, okay, you know, if you were in an office, you might not be able to have someone go on a scavenger hunt and find something around their house.

So, that I could see that being really fun. And I know with kids, you have a plan and then they are able to just say no. And that is not always how it goes in an adult session. So, you are probably always kept on your toes. I'm really curious to hear more about So, I I'm familiar with child-centered play therapy a bit. But, I've always been curious about Okay, well, this makes so much sense following the lead of the child. What else is there? Are And are those successful? Uh yes. So, there's a huge body of research that shows and that, you know, child-centered play therapy works in various settings, in an abundance of cultures, in right? Like with an abundance of different kinds of like diagnoses or presenting problems or issues. I would say that, you know, one of the things that Axline, who's the creator of child-centered play therapy, said over 60 years ago, was, you know, she said, "These things sound easy, but they are not."

And I think they're intuitive and they sound simple, but when to put them into practice, it's not. To So, letting a child lead the way, that sounds simple. They get to choose what they play with and how they play with it, but that is not as simple when you have a parent saying, "Can you get them to stop hitting their sister?" Right? Like or And this This is going to sound I I I hope it sounds the way I want it to sound and not flippant, but I feel that sometimes what systems are asking us to do is to like un-autism a child, right? Is to like get a child to be so different in the world, get a super shy child or a child who doesn't really want to talk to get them to do something they won't they don't want to do. And so, in that way, there's these pressures about making that happen. I don't think you can make that happen.

My example is I can't, you know, get my 22-year-old son to empty dishwasher. So, how am I getting here, you know, child to do that? I also think it's inherently disrespectful to children, and I don't do that with my adult clients. So, I do a lot of juxtaposing about like I would never do that to an adult. Why would I do that with a child? Like in the realm of respect and like appreciating who they are. So, certainly the child leads the way. I think an important piece to hear about that is though that sounds super super permissive, which it is, is that there are still limitations. The child can't hurt themselves, they can't hurt you, they can't destroy property or the integrity of the room or the space. So, it's grounded in reality. It's not just like they can get you know, away with you know, with whatever.

I think some of the other aspects of it that I find really magical is it also goes at the child's pace. So, they they decide what to play and how to play with it and their creativity and their problem solving. I think the thing that in every session, honestly, in every session that I do that always really gets illuminated for me is just you get to see that this is the gift of being a child centered play therapist. You get or the gifts, you get to see children problem solve. You get to see a child who didn't feel good about themselves feel good about themselves. You get to see a child connect with their bodies again if they were traumatized. Like you get to see all that because you created a safe space for them to do that. And I always feel like I have to say this, you don't create a safe space by saying this is a safe space.

Like that's that's not how that happens. with adults usually. You have to prove yourself, right? And so back to that children can, you know, they really can feel when you are when you are putting something on them in that way. Like an expectation, a a goal, you know, on all of those things. Especially when, you know, I don't have a lot of five- to seven-year-olds be like, "You know what I really need? I need some counseling." Right? That would be helpful to me. I would feel so much more regulated if I could just see a counselor. So, most of the time when you're working with children, it's because of an adult-centric view of what's going on with the child. Something that that you just touched on that brought me all the way back. I remember it being such a criticism, and I didn't I remember not knowing how to respond to this.

Such a criticism of people saying, "Well, it sounds like you just let kids do whatever they want, and you kind of observe them and repeat things back to them." And the part of letting them do whatever they want, I remember feeling that. I remember chasing kids that were running away and trying to repeat what the program had told me to say, you know, "We're not for hitting or the alternatives." And in that moment, I remember being like, "Oh my god, what do I do?" And I think that was such a I don't know if it still is today, but that was such a criticism that I felt like I had to defend even though I didn't really know how of, "Oh, you just you just watch kids play. You let them do especially with child-centered, you let them do whatever they want." How How do you respond to that? Okay, so two things.

So, one is limit setting, which is what you were talking about, is the the most difficult skill to have competency at. Yeah, well, it's true. So, but so it's the most difficult skill to have competency at. And it and it takes some practice. And the bottom line is really is you tell a child what they can't do, you have to tell them what they can do. And that has to to from the beginning of the relationship. So, the minute um not even a minute, probably less than that, that a child walks through the door, they hear, um Jessica, this is a very special room. You can do almost anything. So, already they know that you can't do anything in here. You can do almost anything. There's something you can't do. I'll tell you. You can also say anything. Sounds super permissive, um but they can't do anything.

They can do almost anything. So, as soon as they do something that's like on that No, you can't do that. You can't hurt me. You can't hurt yourself. You can't destroy property. Is I tell them you can't do that. You can't dump out the crayons and step all over them because then we can't use the crayons. But, you can destroy this. There's an empty cereal box over there in the kitchen area. So, being able to do that, it works so well in parent, you know, in parenting, too. But, it takes some practice, you know, to be able to do that. Um but, I think once you do, um I can't even remember the last time I had a child get to like through the three strikes and our time is up for today kind of thing. So, it's been at least a decade uh when that has happened. So, when children know that you're a person of your word, which they will learn, um because you meant it.

If they do it again, you're going to take the crayons away. If you do it again, our time is up for today. Whatever it is, is they learn you're a person of their word, and and then that like then you're good. Um but, it's it definitely And you oftentimes feel mean, you know, when you're doing it. But, you have to do it. Like, that's part of um helping kids understand their boundaries and keeping them safe and all the things. So, there was that part. And then the other part you asked was about just doing anything. How does that like how does that work? Just playing and yeah. So, um play is communication in all play therapy. So, regardless of the theoretical orientation that you um bring to the work, which should always be grounded in theory, um is um is that we believe that all play therapists know that play is a form of communication.

And so, I'm not just watching the child play. I'm engaged in the communication with them. Um where I think most of our responses, including I did this as a parent as well, um when our children are playing, we're like, "Good, they're playing." But he's very like uh unless they're playing and then something happens, is that um this is a time where at which hardly ever happens for children, where there's a fully attuned, regulated adult who is watching their play and responding to it. So, in the same way that when we're working together as adults in counseling, you say something, I respond, um a child doesn't have to say something, they can use They can, um and I'll respond to that, but if they're playing, I'm going to respond to their play. Did that answer your question? [clears throat] Yeah, completely, completely.

And it see It all makes so much sense, and I love hearing you say that you that it's been so long since you've run into those situations where you're having to go back, and I I remember so much knowing that okay, I have to have an alternative, but not, you know, being so new and not confident in the in this new way of of doing therapeutic work. Okay, what is the other thing? I didn't scan the room. I didn't know they were going to do this. I just I'm on your feet. Like, what is the alternative? Yes. And I I think you really do have to go into the room, the space that you're going to be using, and think like like almost like baby proofing, right? You get on the ground, you go like, "What could they get into around here?" And then for all of those things, think, "What's the alternative?" I will tell you that my um my little secret is that if I can't think of an alternative or or in the moment is that I'll just say, "You can pretend."

Right? So, I might say like, "One thing you can't do is hit me um cuz that would make this that would make this place unsafe. Um but you can pretend to hit me." And I'll act like That's great. That is a good I wish I had had that tool because that I think the second that or I felt at least the second that you were kind of unsure or grasping at at something, that's when you lose Yes. all of that You become disarmed. built up with them. Yeah. At ReachLink, we believe that mental health care should meet you where you are, literally and emotionally. Whether you're navigating stress, burnout, relationships, or life transitions, you don't have to do it alone. With the ReachLink app, you can connect with licensed therapists through secure, convenient telehealth sessions on your time from your space.

No commute, no waiting rooms, just real support when you need it most. And for the therapists listening, if you're passionate about making care more accessible, if you want the flexibility to work from anywhere while focusing on what matters most, your clients, ReachLink is growing. We're building community of dedicated, compassionate clinicians who are ready to expand their impact through telehealth. So, whether you're seeking support or ready to provide it, join us at ReachLink. Download the app or learn more at reachlink.com because better mental health should always be within reach. Like you lose a bit of your sense of safety, right? And and then it's hard to think. Then your brain does what your brain does and you it's hard to think of like, "Oh, what should I say, Raya?" Cuz you're like, "Ah."

Is there a thing Is this something that maybe perhaps the program that I was familiar with just did or is it more broad? Is there something with play therapy of not necessarily asking asking questions? Is that Yeah. So in I had trouble with that. Oh, of course. Of course. It felt like the key. That's what you fall back on. Right. I think I think also we're socialized to ask children a lot of questions. Um yeah, it is it is so challenging. In child-centered play therapy you don't ask children questions. I always tell my students and um people I'm doing training with that you may ask, "Do you need to go to the bathroom?" And do you need a tissue for that? Like that's it. Those are the only two questions. But most of the questions that we ask fall into two categories. One is that they can easily be converted into reflection of content or a tracking statement or a reflection of feeling.

It's just you have to just s- p- press pause for a second and slow it down. And then the other is we're being nosy and we're rushing, right? So um you know, so if a child is like, "I got a puppy." Um the next question is What kind of puppy? What's its name? Tell me all about it. Right? And if you just went, "Oh my gosh, you're so excited." You made a reflection of feeling is then you they're going to tell you. Relax. They're going to you know, they're going to tell you. Um so and also how important is it that you know the dog's name? It's really not. So I think it's you know, sometimes the questions that we ask and you you can know by how a child responds to you asking a question, you can get a really good sense of like did that work or not? Because if they switch subjects, if they stop talking, if they change their play, if they shift their body language, then it didn't work.

You shut them down instead of what doing what you wanted to do, which was give them the invitation to open up. There is so much more. I just it's so interesting how we don't think about think about it this way naturally. There's it's so much harder. I mean everyone's got their own perspective, but it's so much more unnatural. And of course like there you go putting it back on, you know, what I need as a therapist. I need for the to go a certain way. It kind of all comes back to that and it's so it's so hard and I think the training of of being a play therapist is especially for me at least in those that brief period was so challenging because you are not falling back on those innate skills of asking a million questions, making someone maybe feel good. It is like does not work that way and then I remember getting a lot of feedback of oh, you're leading.

You're leading. And I totally was. You know, looking back and and understanding what it was about, I absolutely was, but that's what was comfortable to me. I didn't know I didn't know what else to do. Okay, if I'm leading, then what am I supposed to do? Right. I think well, there's a lot of pressure on child counselors and play therapists because there's something they're supposed to do, right? Like they're supposed to do something with this child where I don't feel that same pressure when I when I'm working with adults. That's for sure. I never feel like their partner or their children are going to, you know, phone me up and say something like like this isn't going fast enough with my mom or right? Like or something like that, but we have that constantly with children and and also just like understanding the big the bigger picture.

Most of the children that I work with are traumatized children. Most of them are sexually traumatized children. And you know, to think that they're like to get them to stop a particular behavior. Um that like okay, they might like that'd be cool if that happens. But that's not I'm not treating that symptom. I'm treating the trauma and giving the child an opportunity to be seen, heard, and understood. Which is really where the healing happens, not in that they stopped picking their nose and putting it up. But like um If you If you could let me know how to how to fix that in a five-year-old, that'd be great. [clears throat] Funny that that was the example. It was very timely, if I may. Yeah. So, a lot of your work is with is with trauma. Mhm. Do you I have so many questions about that cuz I know that that play therapy is so heavily used in in like sexual trauma or trauma in general and other ways.

Is that primarily the work that you do? Is that a lot of why people seek you out? Um yes, and I think um I didn't sign up to be a trauma specialist, but I literally think that every single clinician is a trauma specialist because you have no choice. That's That's you know, who comes to counseling. Um but I I also um it just kept uh really un- uh unpleasantly and unfortunately, but I do feel I explained it actually to a client. So, I'll share that as a client. But those were the people who kept showing up at my doorstep. So, I had to like I had to get it sorted. And I had a client an adult client that I was working with who asked a lot of questions about the process of therapy and it was really cool cuz it made me like think about like, yeah. I'm like, why is that? Um and one of the questions they asked me was um it is like, how do I sleep at night?

And I had a couple of different answers, you know, pop up in my head, like, "Oh, I don't really." But I thought, like, nope, they're going to take that wrong. Um and then my other answer that popped up in my head was, "I have no problem with I don't take things home with me." Right? Which is is true, but I also thought would be really insensitive to like how how and why they were asking that question. So, I responded from more of like a play therapy part where I said, "Oh, you are worried I can't handle your pain." And I think so it. That's so what it is. So, you really can use that. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Like, there's no I remember getting all this training and supervision and becoming credentialed in play therapy, and then I went to work in college mental health, and I was like, what a waste.

But it wasn't um because I was so much better at seeing all the things and all the things that my clients were bringing. Let me finish that thought. And also recognizing their child parts as well and being able to respond uh to that. But I I think the key really is in working with sexually traumatized kids is we don't want to see it. And I And I don't mean that in like I like that makes so much sense to me. I don't want to see it. I don't want these things to be true. Um but I think one of the beauties of using the child-centered approach is I'm not asking them questions. I'm not trying to get them to anything. And so, they process the trauma the way they need to in at their developmental stage, which, you know, is going to look different at five than it is at nine than it is at 11. All of those things.

What what ages do you work the most with? Uh I think most of the kids that I work with are between five and eight. Uh the young The youngest child I ever worked with, and you know, there's never a good reason why a 1 and 1/2 year old needs to be in counseling, but that's the youngest that I've ever done play therapy with. Wow. What what do you do with I'm trying to picture what that age even looks like and what they do. Well, I guess the sand probably interests them quite a bit. Yeah, but I I would took the sand out actually of the room when I had them in there cuz I was like they're going to eat it. And it's going to be all over the place. It's just hard for them to keep in the sand tray. Like they were just um you know, about the room and you you just match them developmentally. I mean, I think that is part of what I love about child-centered play therapy is I'm going to match this 1 and 1/2 year old and I'm going to match this 6-year-old who's very sophisticated and precocious, but I'm also going to match this 6-year-old who is like, you know, off the wall you know, in the perfect 6-year-old way.

If so, it makes so much sense what you're saying about child-centered work. You know, maybe outside of the situation, you might not be thinking that, but when you explain it, you it makes perfect sense. Of course, I want to follow the lead of the child. This speaks perfect sense. What are some other and why? What are some other ways that we look at at play therapy that are different from child-centered cuz now I can't think why any would make any sense. Well, they'll be difficult to do. I would say that. And and you have to believe in the philosophy of it, right? Like so if you don't believe in the philosophy of it, you're not going to be able to do it cuz it's not so skill-based. It's much more of like who you are, right? So, for almost every counseling approach, there is a play therapy that goes along with it, right?

So, there's like Gestalt play therapy, there's Adlerian play therapy, there's cognitive behavioral play therapy, there's Youngian sand play therapy, there's psychodynamic play therapy. So, you'll find that and then you'll find others that are more recently developed as energetic play therapy, attachment-based play therapy, opt play therapy for kids who are neurodivergent. And I uh I like I have gone to uh training and gotten education and other theoretical approaches to play therapy. Th- This is my home. This is where I always come back to. I can do them, but I don't always have a great reason why. And so for me, it always has to be I'm always asking myself, uh why are you doing what you're doing when you're doing it, right? And and for child-centered most of the kids that I work with again are uh sexually traumatized kids, and it works for them, and it's an evidence-based approach.

So, there are only some of those um approaches to play therapy that are evidence-based, and child-centered is one of the evidence-based approaches. And like I said earlier, there's been a ton of research on child-centered play therapy, so I can always go back and make the argument about why I'm doing child-centered. And I will say I I feel like I would be remiss if and also in dishonest if I wasn't saying there are times where I go like, I'm going to do a little something different here, uh and I can give you an example. But even in that little something different, it might not be by the book child-centered, but it is still fits humanistic like approach. So, for instance, if I am working with a child who is selectively mute, right? Is I still do the same exact opening that I um shared with you earlier, uh Jessica, except at the end I'll say, "And you can say anything in you want you want in here, or you don't have to talk at all."

And I And so, I just throw that in. So, I do something you know, a little bit different uh there. And there may be times, if clinically it's called for, that I may make a bit a pivot, but I think the important part I always consider, and I can just important um to consider, is if you pivot, you're not doing the evidence-based approach anymore. So, I need to have a good you have to have a really good reason to pivot. And I don't usually have really good reasons to pivot. And that's such a good reason to stay with with what you know, with what you know to work, with what all the research is on. That's such an interesting example, and I I would imagine to that child's ears, it's probably not what they hear every day. no, they're going to use your words usually. Yeah, right. And I'm so used to it even to my child, use your words, use your words.

And I Yeah, we're so focused on that, right? And again, that's what makes play play therapists special because probably the most common question I get asked I teach the in the graduate program. And the question I get asked most, and so these are people going to work with children, adolescents, adults, is what if they won't talk? That's the most common question. And the panic in my graduate students is palpable. And I always think like, well, if you did play therapy, that is that wouldn't even be I don't care if a kid doesn't talk. They're still communicating. And so we we talk about that even adults in silence are still communicating, right? They're still communicating with their facial expressions and their body language and their paraverbals and all of those kinds of things. So, if you can still respond to those communications, you don't need, you know, you don't need talking.

And with those skills that you're that you're getting working with children in this way, that really, like you were saying before, really applies to to anyone. Those observations or, you know, identifying what something really means, why someone's asking you what what therapy is, all that stuff of why they're really asking. So, you really do have to be able to think on your feet, huh? Oh, yes. It's always improv. It's always improv, right? You don't know and and I think that um we actually do such a disservice to ourselves as clinicians when we do think um I know what Jessica's going to come in and be talking about, so I can plan for it. Because I don't know what happened to you in the in the week between our sessions or the two weeks between between our sessions. Um yeah, so I think that um it it's a in a it's a bit more respectful in that way, but also more responsible so that and and it takes away some of the hubris that has always been intertwined in the um in this profession of like I know better.

Um not that I don't think we've ever said that, but I think that comes That's what we're all you nailed it, I think. That that's while no one's necessarily thinking that it's that planning and even for us to talk today when I was I was researching you and finding out all this stuff and then I thought, which is always what happens. I always say, "You know what? I'm just going to meet her." And and sure enough, then you have a much more natural conversation and I didn't plan plan the whole thing. Something that you have mentioned at least twice that is so so important to to call out is your respect for for children. You've said that at least twice and that is so special because I don't think I think there are so many people that work with kids that probably very much, you know, are doing great work.

But I don't know and I'm not saying that they don't respect children, but you see it so naturally that you know, if I were to do this, that would be disrespectful. And we're just not as as humans necessarily always thinking about kids that way. I know I'm not. I'm not always thinking of my child, you know, this is disrespectful to her. I'm thinking get her in the car or get her Yeah. Yes. And it's just such I really want to call that out that that's I imagine I could see kids just opening up and being able to feel like they're on the same level. They don't owe you anything. Uh well, and I think So, one I want to I want to say that um I have adult children, but my adult children would be like, "What?" Um although I endeavored to be you know, super respectful to my children, I there's no way I 100% of the time was um or am even as adult.

Uh but it I I did think about it and practice it. But I do think that um there's like there's things that we can that things that we can do that just demonstrate that, right? Like I'm on time for my child clients. I don't make them wait in the waiting room. I Whatever they think is important to talk about is important to talk about. So, uh this is the example I always use. When my son was younger, he was uh really into Pokémon and he had the cards and he would be telling me about the cards and I would be like I And I know at some point, this is not a proud parenting moment, but I know at some point I said, "Andrew, I actually don't care." So, What was his What was his What did he appear to do? What was his face like? he I think he knew I didn't care. Part of I didn't care was cuz I just couldn't wrap my head around it.

But um I will tell you that like in play therapy, that looks entirely different. That I can hold on to that for 30, 45 minutes, but as a parent and and I do think that that's really important. Like my my um training um and education and experience as a play therapist um definitely influence my parenting, but it didn't like I didn't parent my children like I'm their play therapist. There's no way that you can. But if a kid is talking about if they're talking about something if they're talking about K-pop, if they're talking about Pokémon, if they're talking about I have one kid who's like that an expert on griffins and the difference between griffins and dragons. I now know to know about it. But, when they're talking about it because it's important to them is I I am going to lean into that just like I would with my adult client who is talking about a new recipe they tried.

I'm not going to be like, let's talk about it. But, I think it's our job as clinicians to make those links even if we don't illuminate them in every session, but to be able to make those links and say like, "Wow, this is so important to this child." In fact, I'm going to just tell a quick clinical story is there's a little boy that I work with virtually and he's super bright. He's being bullied. He's being bullied in his home by his older brother and it's it's not good like at all and he he struggles and I've learned all about Minecraft from him. And so, he actually plays Minecraft during our sessions and I use it one I think about it through the lens of sand tray play therapy which is very different than play therapy, but will also make I still the responses that I make and the way that I'm situated with him is still in a very much a child centered play therapy thing.

Well, his mom popped on a virtual session with him one day and was like, "Listen, he's not doing this. He's not doing this." Like complain, complain, complain. And she's like, "So, I don't know if this is really working." And I could see he's like he started to well up. He's nine. I could see he started to well up and I said, "You don't like that your mom just said that." To him just like that. And and he said, "No." He's like, "You're literally the only person I can tell things to and you're the only person who thinks what I talk about is important. And so I so I went like this to the mom. You know, like Right. Are there even any words after that? Yeah, like I don't So, yeah, so he's still being like he's still tattling on his brother and I know that's a pain to you and you have six children and of course blah blah, you know, all of these things.

Um, but like this is a place where he knows that like he can talk about anything and he feels that unconditional positive regard and he feels like that acceptance. Um, one of the things Warmate talks about it and I thought, "Oh, I love this." Is he talks about authenticity and acceptance and that it's really difficult to have both, right? Like you can either be authentic or you could be accepted. And I think a good counselor, regardless of the age of the person you're working with, creates that space. Creates that space where you can be authentic. You can show me all all the things that you can't show other people and I will still accept you. And um, that is what I'm trying to do with children and I think, going back to what you originally said, that's what respect is. Is that you can both provide an opportunity for people, an invitation for people to be authentic and still provide them with acceptance.

That's respect. Well, you nailed it. Thank you. Nothing I could say back to that. I can't believe I we I feel like we just touched on all the stuff I wanted to ask you about. Would you come Would you come back on? Of course. When you said the the thing a minute ago about sand tray therapy versus play therapy, I thought, "I didn't even let her get into the dynamics of of sand tray therapy and other stuff." Would you do like a deeper dive with us? Sure. And then that would be great because I think that's like now we understand a lot more about the dynamic of play therapy and the different theories and that we definitely want child centered. Well I know not necessarily, but in this conversation it certainly points to being really appropriate and a real winner, but I would love to do a deeper dive into the other I just know about sand tray therapy.

I don't know the other the other stuff and you've got to give it to us. Okay. Thank you so so much for doing this. You're welcome. And I'll be bothering you in about 5 minutes to set up our next time. So you guys keep an keep an eye out for the part two and I'm going to link Dr. Mullen's website your social media if that's okay. Anything that you're open to sharing will have some good resources in the notes at the end here and really just thank you so much for the conversation and the respect that you're giving your giving your your clients. You're welcome. This was really this was really lovely and as you can tell I'm happy to talk about it. I'm happy to talk about it because it's it's it means so much and I think we can do better, right? Like even as clinicians we can do better with the kids that we work with. Perfectly said.