Burnout, Identity, and Culturally Responsive Care for Black Professional Women

Welcome back to Therapist Voices at Reach Link. My name is Jessica Herurwitz. I manage our network of amazing providers. Today I'm so lucky to be joined by Eva Gordon, LCSSW. She is licensed in the state of New York and she's the founder and director of Life Guide, LCSSWPC. Eva's focus is on providing mental health treatment to the black community as a source of healing and hope. She mainly focuses on black professional women ages 30 and up who struggle with unhealthy relationships and things of that nature. Really helping these women recognize that self-care is their birthright, which I love. Eva, thank you so much for being here. Tell us about you. How did you get started? How did this this great practice come to be? Well, first thanks for having me. Thank you for even reaching out to me and having me on your your podcast.

I'll definitely say that probably years ago I was a case worker doing child welfare work in East New York section of Brooklyn in New York City and um I refer a client for therapy, a little boy about 10 years old cuz case workers don't do therapy. He said to me, "Why don't you be my therapist?" I said, "Well, I can't be a therapist. I don't have the proper tools for or credentials." So a seed was planted in my head about think about therapy and I still wanted to do something management wise not necessarily case management but managing programs. So I got a masters in social work years later from Columbia University and I majored I focused on program planning and development but was still with clinical experience. So I did that for 10 years and I realized doing that work in Easter and Brownsville and Harlem that I wanted to focus more on psychotherapy.

So I began psychotherapy about 11 years ago at a community based practice in Brooklyn called the psychotherapy which is primarily focusing on the black community within mental health. So doing that work for a good seven years. I began my own practice in 2023. So it's a journey and I like being in a journey. So I began doing tele work in 2001. So it's been a good 20 year journey. So here I am. Well we are so glad that you're here and I want to know all the things. So tell me if you could what in your practice so I know what you focus the most on what population you work with the most. So you're working with people that are 30 and older typically so the adult population. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So, it really um it's funny because when I began doing psychotherapy at the clinic in Brooklyn, um a lot of my clients were women who were 25 and up who were struggling with workplace issues, stress issues, healing from childhood trauma.

And the fact is that sometime when you get your degree, your profession, your identity gets kind of warped a bit and you focus more on the job versus on you. not only the job but family, friends, and being the caregiver, the strong one, the one people go to as a resources, help. And you kind of forget about who you are. So, you've becoming this rescue person, the superhero, and you say, "Okay, so I'm feeling drained, burnt out, anxious, unfulfilled." So, you have to kind of reconnect with yourself. So, one of my clients at the clinic were that we're dealing with those issues. And then so I'm thinking I can teach that same population to the black woman, professional women who struggling with boundaries or burnout, workplace stress, and reconnecting with themselves through therapy. So I'm very clear on the great populations you serve.

What services do you offer? Do you do mostly individual counseling? Is it video based? So right now I'm only doing virtual for individuals and couples and families. I've done all three actually virtual and group practices. So I do individuals primarily but I can do family and couples. Um it can be a little bit challenging but I was so funny because I was hesitant about doing tele health services virtual because it's not going to work. So what happened was co came in 2020 we had to do virtual. So we were forced to do it virtual. I've been I would doing person for five six years. Why do why do virtual? So it stuck because we recognize whether it's in person or virtual, I am who I am and I did see breakthroughs during co behind this computer screen. I did get breakthroughs via phone during co and it's continuing to happen.

So virtual is what I'm doing currently. I would love to be do hybrid in person and and virtual but right now we're focusing on virtual in terms of economic stability. But virtual does work. The second thing is clients need convenience. Being in New York sometimes people may live in Brooklyn but work in Harlem or Manhattan. So getting home at time I just I gota know what so clients have stayed at work to do their session with me from 5 to 6. I'm my I'm I'm off the clock now. I can be here for another hour. I do my session before I go to the kids and job and mother and dad. So other thing is using a lunch hour sometimes to do a session. So I've seen clients say this is my time, my hour. I'll be on the bus, I'll be in the car. Some therapists are not into that, but I feel like we have to meet the clients where they are.

And I feel that we need to be adjustable, flexible with our clients. I'm so glad to hear you say that because I feel like sometimes in this now virtual world, especially with with therapy, there are, you know, of course we want people to be safe and not driving an actual car, but what you're saying, you know, we know to be so true that people cannot always find themselves in an in an office with privacy. I don't think often I talk to that many therapists that that say, you know what, I can be flexible and let's see let's see how we can make this work with with the situation you're in. And I really like that and I I think so many people it will resonate with what you've said about video counseling thinking uh this is not going to work. You know, we've seen the the connection of in person all this time.

How could video counseling possibly do the same thing? And I was very much one of those one of those people. And I thought, well, now what? What are we going to do? Oh, we're going to build all these networks of therapists that only do video counseling. How are people no one's going to sign up for that? And then like, you know, as as you've said, it really worked. And it really that whole thing made me very hopeful about what can be when these unexpected things happen like co because there are so many elements. Now you have to pivot what you've been doing with your in-person practice. And I'm sure you've had to become a tech wizard and all of this stuff that you probably never thought you'd have to focus on. You thought you could, how about it? Focus on actual counseling. But I know now providers have to wear so many hats.

And really it's amazing that you're able to do this provide this great service still at the same time and give people that connection that they're getting in in person or they were getting in person it seems like. Right. Right. And the thing is it building on the connection utilizing more virtual tools. I still use worksheets because I have their companies who do give us sheets to download. You can you can screen share your sheets with people. You can still do all the things you need to do in person, myth, virtual, finding videos that are appropriate for children, adults, you know, teenagers. I've I've done ages five and up, 5 to 70. So, um, the thing is that you want to make sure that the tools help the help the clients and that if they're in their car, okay, are they on? Are they handsfree?

I don't want you to have a phone. Pull over. If you have your headset in, your headset on. So I make sure safety first and then we go into if not then okay let's reschedule. So definitely safety first. People who dealing with domestic violence might have to use their car because they can't go home and do it. So it depends upon every situation is different. We don't know what people are facing. So we must be flexible to people's physical safety, emotional safety, mental safety, social safety within the realms of where they're going. So, it's important to be flexible for safety concerns as well. And also getting the help they need because sometimes getting home, they get distracted and they can't focus on themselves. So, how can I well, I'm going to go to the gym and find a spot in the gym and do my session in the gym cuz I'm relaxed at the gym.

I can focus on myself. So, we want to be flexible but yet consider of what's the best safest thing for our clients. So, was there a big learning curve when you started doing doing sessions via video in terms of assessing clients based on like things that would be more obvious in person? I mean, I know we can still see body language and all of that, but was that a big a big learning curve of, you know, I'm not sitting next to this person. I I can see them, but there's that maybe disconnect a little bit when you're assessing for mental status or safety. Yeah. Um, that's a great question. I don't recall having a learning curve in terms of that learning curve in terms of how do I tools, how do I actually cuz the assessment is still just the face and body structure. you can still see people. Um, even with new clients, you can tell how they're sitting, how they, you know, where they are, are they?

So, you can still utilize the same skills of of assessing. To your point, I recall the curb was really much the technology issue, the the convenience. What's the best place? Um, I'm running late from work. I have to do it later on. I think it was more about that getting home in time. Can I do it from here? Because of scheduling issues in person was about parking space because New York mix parking is terrible. So parking in person was hard and the trains are late. So but even then still virtual. Okay, I'm on the bus. I want to do I'd rather do it at home in my bedroom. So let's schedule for tomorrow. So it's really about rescheduling with still the same issue whether in person or virtual. So I think it's just how do I really engage? I think engagement can happen either in person or virtual if you understand what you're looking for, right?

So people are people whether they're in the screen or in person looking for how they respond to what I'm saying to them, body language is still there, you know, are they crying? Are they like they're thinking? So I still have to assess for all those things, right? Yeah. That makes sense. All I'm thinking of is that the only thing you can't do is the only sense is that you can't smell. So, right. Do you Eva, do you think that this for for your practice? I know we've been into this for a number of years with video counseling being the new normal. Has it been sustainable for you? Do you do you plan on for the long haul sticking to video counseling? Has it has it impacted your practice? people still want virtual. Um, that's okay. I do plan to do hybrid. I do plan to finally get a office space to do both because I want to do both.

I think both are necessary. I think it's sustainable. Um, it's fine. I think people do want the convenience of virtual. My population, they don't mind virtual because it could be home or, you know, wherever they are and moves with them. So, this it's able to go with the client is like go where the client is. I just think that we have to recognize that we must still must do therapies. you're training to do therapy. We cannot we cannot make it how do you say? We cannot change it but make sure we are still eye contact and our posture is good and we're we're not having distractions that my space is clear for me to be a therapist. So that way I'm still preparing myself getting dressed, eating myself, having my lunch. I have to do all that still and doing virtual. It is so interesting sometimes I think how you know slowly we're getting so used to this being the norm or maybe not so slowly we're used to this being the norm and then I always wonder oh gosh is it really easy for people to slowly get so comfortable I mean I remember not as a therapist but starting my work from home time about 10 years ago originally getting already you know professionally dressed and then starting to think and this was before video calls were a thing and I remember being like oh my gosh what has happened to me and I always wonder oh you know it's for therapists it has to be the same thing of you know just because I may be in a home office I'm still the same therapist people are still getting the same service from me.

Yeah. Yeah. You have to be consistent because if you if you a therapist do less and it to me it'll impact the quality of service I'm giving people. So I have to maintain my level of quality of care for myself, provide quality care for the clients. Eva, in your in your practice, so I know you're the founder and director. Do you have other you have other therapists working at your practice or are you seeing the majority of your clients? Yeah, I'll be the only only therapist. I want to do more of a boutique of services. Um because in my mind I've I've worked in two group practices. Great work, but it's a lot of work. It's it's it's it's a lot. I've seen you know colleagues do a lot with group practices. So for in my in my vision for my practice is really not just mental health but also workshops and doing consulting work.

So doing community workshops on mental health be for adolescence, children, staff, faith-based community. So doing all that as well. And I think for me it's it's not so much about quantity but quality. So I'm capping at 20 individual or 20 clients and then adding on or working with workshops. So I want to do a writing group for women sometime in the spring. That's like my other tool is is doing writing. So I have had clients do writing assignments for sessions to like further their their work. So I plan to do my own vision which is really healing through psychotherapy, education of mental health and also writing as well. So yeah, can you I'm I'm glad that you mentioned the workshops. Can you tell us more about the kind of workshops that you offer? So I know you do in your counseling in your practice.

Now you're also offering workshops to what avenues are you offering them in? Yeah. So I'd love to I have already have done this organizations who work with children and families um faith-based organizations. I'd love to do more schools. Um I haven't done schools in a while. So I want to do schools. The topics are about either supporting a child's social emotional development. Um I've done general mental health and then looking at depression, anxiety. I have been working for a local library on anxiety and depression those topics as well. So like to definitely provide basic information on mental health. I think people don't know what it is. They know but they hear a lot of things on social media and to other people and not hear from professionals enough. So I want to make sure professionals have have their say provide our tool.

Provide accurate information. Make room for discussion. Make room for well I'm not sure what that is. Let's talk about what it really is and what it could look like. The vastness of mental health. It's a big it's huge. So there's room for all of us to learn from each other and professionals experts should be um in the community doing these kind of things, workshops to educate everybody from a preschooler to grandma to directors and staff, everybody. I've done shelters. I've done um child care centers. I've done Yeah. There's really now that you're saying it, I'm thinking of what a lack of I think so many therapists have such specialties and sometimes we jump to to that or assuming that a client maybe has been in care before. But I love that you're saying that there you offer such a focus on the foundation because how intimidating for people that have never gone to counseling before, have never sought out that kind of support.

It's very obvious when when a therapist is not ready for somebody that's new and it sounds like you really are meeting people. you can provide that education of what what this is going to be like or even then also someone that's really a really seasoned client and has has gotten a lot of care. Yeah, some clients are not ready. That's that's okay. I think I want people to have their own journey in this. Like I've been my my own journey is I had therapy years ago. I wasn't ready for it. I went to it years later because I was ready then. So I think it's really about where you are being available for the whole process of therapy. It can feel intrusive but the goal is to gather information to assess for what's happening right so for us it's a lot of intake forms on your mental status reason for coming in um consent forms because we have to make sure that we get off information we need to assess and provide the best quality of care.

So, not everybody's there right now when they come to me or any other therapist. It takes time. But in terms of the workshops, the workshops can be a connection to that in terms of what it is and and how to really educate folks on what mental health is and make it more of part of your your life, part of your actual health. So, the goal is to make mental health a part of your health. And I think I had a client tell me, "You're part of my wellness team. I have my doctor, massage therapist, and I have you. So, that's the goal. Make a therapist part of your wellness team. What insight of that of that client to have? That's that's great for them to have come to that conclusion on their own. That's so I mean, what else could we ask for? And the helping profession of people to feel that they have their their support and it's not just one symptom that they're experiencing, medical or or mental health.

It's all connected. I mean, I think psychotherapy is a mind, body, and spirit alignment. So, my take is holistic. So, I will ask about your health. Are you eating, sleeping right, exercising, going outside for air, natural vitamin D? That way, your physical health, your emotional, mental, and spiritual. So, I use a holistic approach to it because your whole body is talking to you. So, for example, another client said to me, "If I wasn't in therapy, I'd be in in a hospital bed with with heart disease." Um, because she went to a doctor. Our doctor said having chest pain. Doctor said, "You're fine. It's just stress. Go to a therapist." So, right, it could just be you need. So, I have clients who had chest anxiety attacks, panic attacks, and that being said, the therapies help to subside the different different issues.

It may come back because things do happen, but we want to make sure that they have the tools or they call me, hey, listen, I have a work day at work and I call you for session. Sure, call me. I've had clients call me at 10 o'clock on Saturday morning at 10 o'clock. So, you have to be available for clients when they're having a crisis. Um, that's part of the work, but happen a lot because having therapy, it stabilizes you. So, and the real goal with therapy is to minimize psych emergency room visitations, right? Same with medical. You don't want a person going to the ER for for care. You want them to go to a doctor for care. So, rather than go to psych, psychiatric emergency room, a therapist can reduce the risk of going to that. and you're really giving them them those tools in your work with them so that they can avoid a crisis or or really understand how to deal with that.

Yes. Exactly. So it's similar to medical but of course medical is biomedical and that's that's okay but psychotherapy is holistic and in and way I psychotherapist is as a social worker it's environmental plus psychological spiritual so we want to look at the person in their environment. That's one of our foundations as social workers person in in their environment and how does it how does the environment impact them? How does how do they impact the environment? It's definitely a two-way thing. It's so partnership and how do we help them respond to the environment, respond to their own thoughts, everything in between. So you are correct me if I'm wrong, the moderator of deacon board. Yes. Yes. Do I have that at my church? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Can you tell us about that? I thought that was so cool.

Yes. Yes. So, I'm a member of Sylum Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn. So, I'm I'm a head of the deacon board at my church. Um, and deacons are in charge of what we call compassion and service. And it's based on Acts 16. Philip told the the members of the church to look out for the widows and children. So deacons for example we provide communion the um bread and sacrament and then we also do go for the ticket shut in um prayers working with the pastor do visitation to those who cannot come out. So definitely compassion service we work in the food pantry our monthly community breakfast anything involving the community and caring for the members of the congregation and community as well. Now what else can you tell me? You work you work with substance abuse is that right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Um I think you do a lot.

You've got a lot of tricks up your sleeve. I feel like Well, you know what it is? I think a lot of clients that come to me the way some of them cope with stress is through either marijuana, vaping, or alcohol. Like easily accessible. So like I've had clients say, you know, I've had a lot of wine lat. Well, I had argu rather than having one can of beer, I have two or three and I don't feel good in the morning. So we're trying to figure out what triggers a person to have more than usual amount of wine or beers or so it's not about I think the method is harm reduction right harm reduction the method we use to those who are drinking substance abuse issues reduce it so that way we can help them to manage it better. So, for example, if a mother has a 20-year-old child, marijuana is a coping mechanism.

Okay? So, don't do while she's home with her. You can't do it. When you go out with your friends, have your mom come by and leave the home with your friends, but you can't come back with because I might want to smoke with kind of this with your daughter. So, how do you sober up at night before getting home to your daughter who's two? So, what happens is that the issue is in marijuana legality. It's not totally legal yet. You can get arrested for marijuana usage if it's either over an ounce under 21 in New York State. So, we're trying to figure out, you know, usage. When is it safe to use? I had a client who said to me, you know, I feel like getting high. Okay. So, how are we going to do that safely tonight? What what's your plan? Well, I have to go get food. So, I'm going to get my dinner, come back, and when I go to bed, I'll I'll have my little u marijuana.

Cool. I don't want I don't want you driving with it. I rather you be at home, in bed, or in your backyard using it. So, how do we how do we have this conversation about some usage where yes, you're you're you're have your own your own your own home, you have a job, you're not using on at work, you're using it at home in your privacy, you have no kids around. So, figuring out the environment, when to use, when not to use. When uh last a client went to a conference, her boss is stressing her out. I have an edible before. Well, you don't have an edible at work. Do you want to be clearminded at this conference all day? So, we talked about ways before the conference how to manage the stress and I didn't tell you I tell her, well, let's figure out what to do. So, came back how to use edible. Awesome.

So, right. I I think it's really it's really refreshing and I would imagine as as a client of yours such relief of oh my gosh she gets it. She's not slapping me on the wrist. She you were really you're keeping yourself a breast of the changes in the world and how that and it seems like you're very you're very realistic. Yes. Yes. and and really is being client centered because where's the client? The boss is dressing her out. It's a all day conference. I'm going to be away for five days or three days. I don't this this this boss bothers me. So, who you going to hang out with? Who's going to keep you stable? Well, my coworker and I Okay, cool. So, that coworker is going to hang out with during that whole time. Sit by the coworker. You know, recognizing your goal for the year is do what you're hired to do, that extra work.

So you're doing all the things you have to do to reduce the stress, get support in the environment, and try not to utilize edible during work hours or before work and go through the day high. So yes, so it's person it's client centered. You have to think about the client where they are going is their job. When you mentioned it being really client- centered, I kept thinking, oh my gosh, yes. So that is the epitome of what what you seem to be as a as a practitioner client. I don't know if I've ever spoken with anyone that is so clearly client centered. I think it's just the training as a social worker that sometimes, you know, I got my masters almost 20 years ago and you kind of lose sight of why why you do what you do and taking the clinical exam was hard but some things just stay in me because you know you you're going back to basics to get this exam done and you forget a lot of things once you start work in the real world.

We all do. So you have to go back to what is foundational why you do what you do and that kind of back to person environment client centered and to your point about that is the most important part of therapy is the alliance between the therapist and client that's as far as our training social workers the therapist and client alliance and so not friendship but partnership side by side and the reason why I named my practice lifeguide because lifeguard is Because the client said to me, you know, you and I in a session, I feel like you're like my guide because the film called the the shack. Love that film, The Shack, she said. And she watched a film a guy who was going through grief and grieving his loss of his family and someone comes as a guide to him in his grief journey. It's like you're like my guide in my journey.

So, hence the name life guide. Does that client know that they are the in they are the um inspiration? That client ended before I had my own practice. Actually, I haven't seen her in a long time. Hopefully she'll see and and watch. But I was just gonna say, well, we have to send her this obviously. So, so that's really um the purpose is being someone's life guide. It's a journey, not a destination. So, we see therapy as a journey. We'll kind of figure out how do I get through this this time in my life, this part of my journey. And therapist is here, but this part of my life, not may not be the whole life, but just a season or two or a few seasons and then move forward. So that's part of the work is being an alliance or ally to your client as a therapist and just being there with them, sitting there with them in their tears and joys and and all sort of triumphs and pains.

So what's next for you? What's the big focus that that's really exciting for you that's coming up? Um I think just just just helping more people, getting more clients. I do want to still plan a writing group for women for black women for healing. Um cuz I some clients like those writing assignments. So just getting more individual clients and writing a group for writing like about 8week group and that's kind of like my year. Can you tell us I wanted to actually that reminds me I wanted to ask you to go back to this. Can you tell us more about the writing group? That whole idea. I love that. I want to know more. My skill set for me is sociology and writing. In undergrad I really even since I was a little kid I was like writing a lot. I always tell myself I would have aced SATs had they been essay seexual on on the SATs.

I bombed the SATs really bad. So I needed to write essay. We all did. So so I like writing a lot. Creative writing, expressive writing. Um one aspect of writing is is exploring your thoughts. So I've had clients write um in terms of define the ideal man for you. Define for you or write a letter to your mom. You have to give it to her. how the impact of your mom and how you're a mother now. So things like that because sometimes things seem cloudy, things seem foggy and writing helps to express what's happening inside of you to further enhance your own work because therapy is selfwork. So you want a client to work on themselves more and not fingerpoint or blame but figure out what's happening inside of me. So a lot of times clients will have a a thought that's right about this thought for the week.

Now, it doesn't have to happen, but I'll just say, "Well, do you want to do it?" I'm not sure. Okay. There's no deadline. There's no grading. It's just it's for you to further enhance your work in therapy. So, it's an add-on. It's not of But some clients who really do it really say, "I really this really helped me a lot." So it further enhances their own work and sessions, more exploration, more insight, more wisdom and more things about healing from trauma, healing from past pains, current situations, and just really further enhancing their quality of life. There's such a a huge beauty, I think, to writing that sometimes maybe is is forgotten when we're so everything's talking and, you know, spewing out everything that just verbally or just typing, right? I love that that you incorporate that.

I feel like that's probably not as common, which is why it's so great. I mean, right now perhaps that you're you're offering that as a tool and guiding because I I suspect I have a hunch that clients that do end up working with you that way probably get a lot out of it and are perhaps surprised about how healing how healing that was. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's not a thing I do every week because I have to say myself write about that this week. It doesn't happen every week because it's not psychotherapy is the main service, right? So, I don't automatically do it. But if I'm listening to you as a client, I'm thinking to myself, you should write about that. You should really go deeper into that thought. And when they do, they recognize, okay, I'm stuck here. I'm stuck there. I know I can grow there, grow there.

So, it's about growth to your point. I think they recognize where their stumbling blocks are and where they need to go, where they're afraid to go. I really appreciate knowing where that came from for you. I had a a feeling that it probably was something personal and and an interest for you, but but I I love knowing that you took something that was important to you and thought, you know, this could this could help people and and sure enough, and it all I think full circle goes back to to your client- centered approach, right? And that holistic approach, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. because I think there's there tools book I using about how writing opens you up and um I think it's by Mr. Penny Baker. He's he's definitely a psychologist that that does a lot of writing is how writing can help you express your thoughts and um definitely something to look at for myself or other therapists too.

So I think it's something to think about in terms of how we can bring ourselves into our practices more. How do we differentiate? So it want to be on my site because it's not something I automatically give people because it's not automatic. I cannot every client do because my some clients might not want to I might not see this client's not really not really. So you see a client for where they are, right? And figure out what's best to help this certain client. So children not always because kids are a little different. It's more interactive, more games or just doing what they want to do in terms of how they see themselves. Adults not sure but them some of those who need that. Yes. So, we'll see. I want everyone to come see you. I know I know you've probably got your client your case load already, but I I'm still have openings.

I have ask then let's then let's help you with that because I there's such wonderful therapists out there and that's part of why we want to to do this whole this whole podcast thing. There's so many people out there that, you know, I know we're talking about how great all these virtual options are that we have today that make care accessible for people where it might not be, but that also is isolating and that we need it to be out there that you're here. So, I'm really excited that we've connected and I'm going to make sure that that your information is available um through us and thank you so much for being here. It was so so wonderful to meet you and I think there'll be much more to come. Okay, sounds great. Thank you for having me. It's been great. Thank you so much, Eva. Talk to you soon. Yes, take care. Thank you so much.