Episode 31 · 55 min · Oct 13, 2026
Why This Therapist Won't Argue With a Delusion | Eli Westfall, LMFT
with Eli Westfall, LMFT
For most therapists, the path to licensure is a straight line. For Eli Westfall, LMFT, it took eighteen years, a Marine Corps enlistment he never fulfilled, a detour through Bible college, two stints at the Florida Department of Children and Families, a psychiatric hospital admissions desk, and a missed licensing deadline that nearly ended his counseling career before it started. When host Jessica Hurwitz asks what he would have done differently, his answer arrives without hesitation: believe in himself sooner.
Westfall grew up in a group home his parents ran out of their own house in Georgia, surrounded from age nine by teenage girls in crisis. That early exposure shaped something fundamental in his clinical philosophy long before he ever sat across from a paying client. His father's guiding principle was that you cannot talk to someone about the bread of life when all they want is a piece of bread, meaning that meeting people where they are is not a technique but the prerequisite for any real conversation. Westfall carried that framework through church ministry, foster care casework, and child protective investigations in Central Florida, collecting a kind of experiential breadth that no two-year accelerated graduate program could provide. When he finally started a master's in counseling, he enrolled almost reluctantly and took seven years to finish, filling elective slots with marriage and family courses more by accident than by plan. Those accidental electives, it turned out, would save his career. When a missed deadline wiped out his path to becoming a licensed mental health counselor, they were the coursework he needed to sit for the marriage and family therapist exam instead.
The psychiatric hospital where he worked admissions taught him something none of his clinical supervision peers had ever witnessed firsthand: what a psychotic break looks like from two feet away, and more importantly, what to do when a client is inside one. His answer is to stop arguing. If someone is convinced the sky is purple, Westfall accepts the purple sky and asks whether they would like a bottle of water. The delusion is not the problem to solve in the room; the person experiencing it is. That same willingness to meet reality on whatever terms a client brings it shapes how he works now. His current practice is built around young men in their twenties, fathers trying to figure out how to be fathers, and married couples. He is candid about an entire generation treating ChatGPT as a substitute for therapy, and rather than dismissing it, he treats it as a starting point. When a client shows up having spent three nights in an online rabbit hole about attachment styles, Westfall pulls out his own phone, locates the therapist whose YouTube videos started the conversation, and emails himself the free resources. Not knowing the answer in the moment is not a liability; pretending to know it is.
What comes through most sharply in his conversation with Hurwitz is his willingness to confront clients in a way they can actually hear. He tells new clients up front that what they see is what they get, that if something feels like a problem they are going to name it, and that he asks for the same directness in return. That transparency, rather than creating distance, is what keeps clients coming back. It is also, he suspects, why the one client he genuinely called out and never saw again says more about that client's moment than about the confrontation itself.
The episode closes with three voice notes Westfall would leave for his younger self and for any new therapist who recognizes themselves in his story. Believe in yourself sooner, because the most accurate assessment of you often comes from everyone around you before it comes from inside you. Do not take a client's emotional reaction personally, because nine times out of ten it belongs to something already in motion inside them, not to anything the therapist did. And acknowledge what you do not know, because the client who has hyperfocused on a single subject and arrives knowing more about it than you do is not a problem to manage but an invitation to learn alongside them. The last piece lands with particular weight coming from someone who spent years insisting that nobody wanted to hear what he had to say. By the time Hurwitz asks him to say it one more time, Westfall says it plainly: he is pretty good at what he does.
In this episode, you will learn:
- Understand why accepting a client's delusion rather than arguing with it opens the door to real therapeutic work.
- Learn how experience in child welfare and psychiatric admissions prepares therapists for situations that classroom training alone cannot replicate.
- Recognize why young men in their twenties are substituting ChatGPT for therapy and what genuine human connection offers that AI cannot.
- Practice confronting clients in a way they can actually hear, preserving the relationship instead of ending it.
- Acknowledge what you do not know in session, because intellectual honesty builds more lasting credibility than faking expertise.
- Apply the principle of meeting people where they are to every client population, from acute psychosis to couples in crisis.
- Discover how a winding, accidental career path can produce a more effective clinician than a straight-line rush to licensure.
- Believe in yourself sooner: why listening to how others see you is often the most accurate measure of your potential.
Host
Welcome back to Therapist Voices at ReachLink. I'm Jessica Hurwitz. I'm your host. Today, I'm so excited. We've got Eli Westfall, who I just— instead of starting recording, which I should have, I just asked him all the questions about himself and then realized maybe I should hit record so everyone else gets to hear this. But I'm especially excited for Eli to be here because a lot of the, the guests that we've had on have had somewhat traditional journeys into the mental health field where they may have known this is kind of what they wanted to do, followed that path or something close to it. And I believe Eli has a little bit of a different story of how he ended up where he is now as a licensed marriage and family therapist. Um, Eli, tell us, tell us a little bit about yourself. Let's jump in.
Guest
Sure. Yeah. I became a therapist after I got out of a psych hospital. No, I'm just kidding. That's not true.
Host
Oh, I was so ready to go with that.
Guest
No, it's not quite that cool.
Host
Oh no.
Guest
It's, uh, it's funny because, uh, when I tell people the early parts of this story who know me now, like, they're like, no way. Right? There's no way. I, I was actually just talking to one of my clients about this, um, on Wednesday, actually. All through high school, all I can remember, my plan was to join the, the military.
Host
I wanted I knew you were going to say that for some reason. I don't know why.
Guest
I actually signed delayed entry to the Marine Corps, which means I signed up before I turned 18. And as soon as I graduated high school, I was getting the fuck out of town and I was going to, I was going, that was the plan. And I grew up in a ministry family. Uh, my dad had worked at a church. My, my parents, um, when I was in 4th grade, they started a group home for troubled teenage girls. And so from age about 9, all the way to when I got married, we had any number of young, you know, teenage girls that were not related to me that were in our, in a home. Cause the group home was our home. We came home from church one Sunday and my mom was like, hey, I think you should go to Bible college for a year. And I was like, what? Well, that's not the plan, but okay. Why not?
Host
Tell me more, mom.
Guest
Yeah. So, uh, so I signed up to take the last SAT of my senior year. I, I took the SAT once after taking no college prep classes, because it was not the plan. Um, went to Bible college, hated it, uh, came back home and did my, my gap year after that and just kind of like worked with my mom and dad, did a lot of traveling for them, which was because I, I liked, um, you know, going to summer camps, church camps and things like that. Because that's how they got the money to, to, to support the ministry. The group home was, uh, from churches, you know, missionary boards and things like that, right? So we did a lot of traveling. I still had friends. Um, the, the Bible college that I went to, I grew up in Athens, Georgia.
Host
Oh, yeah.
Guest
Um, the Bible college that I went to was down in Atlanta. I still had friends, so I would go visit frequently. Um, then I met this, this young lady whose name was Rhonda, and, uh, I started to go visit friends, uh, but also to see her. And then, uh, we started dating. I decided to go back to the Bible college because this is where this chick is going to school. She ultimately became my wife.
Host
Um, I was, I was going to say, is this now your, your attorney wife? But then it would have been so weird if you were like, uh, no, it's not actually. That is not Rhonda. Hi, Rhonda.
Guest
Yeah. So, so we, I finished up a couple of years there. We ended up getting married as, as babies. We got married very young, back to Florida. She grew up in Florida. We moved down to Florida here. She went to school at UCF. I went to a small Bible college down here. I got into church ministry a little bit, worked for campus ministry, worked doing student ministry, worked as a preacher for a church for a while, youth and family ministry, some children's ministry. I did all these things and none of it really fit. And then I kind of, fell into working for the state of Florida, um, the Department of Children and Families, um, as a foster care caseworker. And I thought that at the time, I thought that that was just like till I found another church. And then I got to where I really enjoyed the social, the social services, the child welfare. I really enjoyed that. I ended up working as a case manager for probably about 5 years. Tried church again. That didn't really work. Somewhere in there, I started a master's program. I initially had applied to FSU's MSW program, um, cuz we were living in Gainesville at the time. My wife was in law school and I wanted to be a supervisor for DCF. You had to have a master's degree. So all of my friends were going to get their MSW. So I'm like, wow, I'll get an MSW too.
Host
I'm coming too.
Guest
Yeah. Why not? I got in, um, but decided not to go to that program. without giving like too many of the boring details, we ended up moving to Central Florida cuz my wife's dad got sick with cancer and I was working as a case manager down here. And I thought to myself, I still need a master's degree cuz I guess that's still a thing. So I'm like, why don't I do counseling? Cuz, okay. And I'm like, I don't wanna be a counselor, but I, you know, whatever. So I started on this, this master's in counseling. I was going to school at Webster University, which, you know, their main campus is— in St. Louis. They got campuses everywhere. Um, I took a very non-traditional path to finish my master's. It took me 7 years because again, I'm like, I don't really wanna be a counselor, so there's not really like a rush to get done.
Host
You probably weren't like dying to get to the finish line when you weren't so sure. Yeah.
Guest
If you would've been like, Eli, why are you in a master's of counseling program? I'd have been like, after a couple years, it was kind of like, I'm here now, so I gotta finish, right? Yep.
Host
Yep, absolutely.
Guest
So I finally finished. I took the coursework to be a licensed mental health counselor because I took 7 years. I ended up having all of the marriage and family classes as electives, right? Um, in Florida to get licensed as a mental health counselor, it's a 60-hour master's. Um, I finished that 60-hour master's with 72 hours. So, no. Which, which is an important piece the information for later. Right.
Host
Uh-huh. Perfect. Noted.
Guest
Again, I'm, I'm done. I don't really wanna be a counselor, but I figure I should get licensed because that's just what you do. Right. So I started working on getting licensed as a mental health counselor. I wasn't really serious about it. I ended up going back to work at DCF, um, as a child protective investigator. It did. I did that for like another 6 years or something like that. Um, somewhere in there, I started working at a psychiatric hospital here in town in the admissions department, and I, I kind of did a whole bunch of like mental health adjacent type things, but really was still avoiding this whole counselor thing because I'm kind of like, I don't really want to do this. I, I like, I'm a smart guy and I've, I've, you know, had some experiences, but I'm like, I don't, nobody wants to hear what I have to say. Like nothing is relevant. My wife ended up getting about 6 years ago, she ended up getting diagnosed with, um, ovarian cancer. Um, and through that whole process, I was not able to finish the requirements to get licensed as a mental health counselor. Sure. And in Florida, you have a certain amount of time to finish your registered intern, and if you don't, you're screwed, right? Yep. Yep. So I got screwed. Um, and I appealed it. Um, but I guess I didn't do the right appeals cuz it didn't go through. Luckily, I had taken all of those marriage and family classes, so I had the coursework to get licensed as a marriage and family therapist. For any clients and patients that are watching this, please don't take this the wrong way. I don't know that the letters at the end of my name necessarily matter when you're coming to look for therapy, right? LCSW, LMHC, LPC, you know, LMFT. I don't think that those matter necessarily.
Host
I definitely hear that.
Guest
And so I thought, well, if I'm going to get licensed, I'll get licensed. By that point, I had kind of come to the realization For whatever reason, everybody keeps telling me, Eli, you'd be a really good counselor. You would like, you would do it. Right. So I started working part-time at this private practice and I thought, well, let's just see. I'm going to get licensed because I spent all this time and money on this degree. Even if I don't do this, let me just go ahead and get licensed so that I'm licensed. Right.
Host
Yeah.
Guest
Then the craziest thing is that I found that not only do I really enjoy this and I can't imagine doing anything else, I don't suck at it.
Host
Yeah. I don't think anyone listening to this is gonna be at all surprised. Like, I think you were probably the last one of anyone who knew you, I would imagine, to realize like, oh wait, like I am good at this.
Guest
Yeah, I think you're probably right about that. And whenever everybody would say that, I mean, you, you don't know what you're talking about. Right. I glossed over like a whole set of experiences and whatnot that kind of primed me to be in a place to really better understand all of my, all clients and to, to get it.
Host
Was all that after you finished with the licensure? Was it, or was it like along the way?
Guest
Oh, it was all in the middle of it. I mean, part of the reason that I took 7 years to finish my master's degree, because it was like, that was therapy for me to some degree. I know there's not like a clinical term for this, but I had what could only be described as a mental breakdown. Um, struggled with depression and anxiety really, really bad for a couple of years. I was one of those counseling students that actually went to therapy, not just to see what it was about, because I really needed it. And so that's something that I can share with my clients that I'm like, hey man, like I, I know what it feels like to be sitting on my couch. Right? Because I've been there myself.
Host
How long of a way does that go with your clients just to hear that?
Guest
It goes a long way, especially when you have a client that is really struggling to overcome something. And, and you can, and I can be like, listen, I've been in your shoes. I've been to therapy just like you are right now. I know there is a light at the end of this tunnel because I've, I've been there. Let me walk you through this because I've been down this road before. I fought against it and fought against it and fought against it because I'm like, not only do I not want to be a counselor, a therapist, whatever you want to call this, but I'm like, nobody wants to hear what I have to say anyway, to where now, like I said, I've gotten to the point where I really enjoy this. I can't imagine doing anything else. And not only do I not suck at it, I'm, I'm actually pretty good at it. Good.
Host
I was going to force you to say that by the end of our time together, if you hadn't already.
Guest
Yeah, I got there. I'm pretty good.
Host
When you were talking about how You know, you were set on the Marines, that's what was happening, and then, you know, your mom had this suggestion. And I know this could be totally not how it went, or maybe it was. It seemed that you were so okay with that, like, oh, okay. Is that how it really was? Did you just kind of say, okay, like, never mind, I'll give this a shot? I mean, you do seem quite easygoing, so I, I could understand that. But was that how it was? Just something that you were so set on and then like, okay, mom, I'll just, I'll, I'll listen to you. That's a good idea. Let me try it out.
Guest
So 2 things. First of all, I was laughing because everybody, especially like all my clients, they tell me I'm a very patient, easygoing. Um, if you use those words, if you ask my wife and kids about that, they will be like, no, not even a little bit.
Host
Right. That gives such credence to that therapists are real people and that you are able to, but that's awesome. You are able to separate. I mean, sure, I get it. Not as awesome for your family if it's something that they love, but whatever, you know, that's, that's you, but that's phenomenal that, that you've got that. It's a, it's a boundary, a form of a boundary.
Guest
So to answer your question, really my thought process was, is in that moment, I kind of, I remember thinking, How my mom approached it was, is she said, your dad and I have been praying about it and we think you need to go to Bible college for a year.
Host
Well, if someone told me that, I'd be like, well, damn, I'm going to do that then. You've been praying about it.
Guest
I was kind of like, well, you feel pretty strongly about this. And I mean, what's a year, right? And I'm like, I'll give it a go for a year. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I mean, what have I lost? Nothing really. When this came up with the client the other day, like, I told them that I kind of felt like I don't like to like over-spiritualize things and make it bigger of a deal than things are. But I do think one of my strengths as a therapist is, is the, my ability to compartmentalize.
Host
That's good for you.
Guest
It is.
Host
Tell me what that's like.
Guest
It's very relaxing. I think that had I gone down the road I was going to go down, I think that mentally and emotionally, I would've ended up in a very dark place.
Host
Mm-hmm.
Guest
Because of my ability to compartmentalize. That was like a critical juncture for me as a, a human, as my soul. I don't mean, I would, I don't know how you wanna say it. Like, I, that was a critical juncture for me. I think that's one of those things that like, that was a critical moment. And I think that had things gone down a, the different road, who I turned out to be would've been somebody completely different.
Host
So that's so interesting because I thought you were going to say, I would have ended up in the same place though.
Guest
Oh no.
Host
And that's totally not what you were going to say. And my thought for on that was that you grew up, you know, in this situation with, with what your family set up with the group home. I thought you were going to say more, it's in my blood. I grew up experiencing this, but I'm so glad to I mean, I like knowing that that's not, that's not what happened for you.
Guest
I really don't think that's how it would've gone. I think it would've gone somewhere much like less constructive.
Host
Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. And this is really interesting cuz I feel like you're really keeping me on my toes here, which is awesome because I am assuming that you're gonna answer this a certain way and I have a feeling you, you might not. And that was a compliment. With what, with how you grew up, with when your, your mom and dad, how old were you when your mom and dad said they were going to do the group home thing?
Guest
Uh, like 9.
Host
When that started, how many years was that for? Was that like a good chunk of your childhood?
Guest
They started that when I was 9. Like I said, my wife and I got married young. I was 21 when I got married. So that was another, however many years, 12 years or whatever that But they continued to, to run the group home aspect for several years after I got married.
Host
Wow. So that's what you grew up with.
Guest
Yeah.
Host
You went into like child welfare stuff and it does sound, correct me if I'm wrong, that like you did go back to that, not necessarily the exact same role, but to that arena of the field. Do you think that growing up with, with the group home situation? Did that influence that, do you think, or just not at all?
Guest
I do, because I think that that experience coupled with my own experiences, it, it helped me to, it helped me to have kind of like a framework of understanding. Yeah. Like not only the need to help people, but kind of an idea of how to do that successfully.
Host
Right.
Guest
The group home was, was supported by churches, individuals, mission budgets, and things like that. So my dad spent a lot of time at churches talking to churches.
Host
Mm-hmm.
Guest
And one of the things that he used to say all the time was, in the Gospels, Jesus talks about he's the bread of life, right? And my dad used to say, you can't talk to somebody about Jesus being the bread of life when they just want a piece of bread, right? You can't talk to somebody about Jesus being the water of life when they just want a cup of water. And so what you have to do is you have to meet people where they are, and you have to meet their physical needs and be able to talk to them about their spiritual needs. Right. And I think that even when we're talking, we're not talking about spiritual things, we're just talking about, you know, meeting people where they are is really how we have to approach helping people. And so I think that that experience growing up really set a framework for me to understand you have to meet people where they are. You have to let them be in their moment and let them come to the realizations and understandings on their own. And you can be there with them, but this is their journey is not my journey. I'm along for the ride with them. If you don't want to go from point A to point B, okay, that's on you. I don't give clients a lot of homework. Like, well, I give them homework in a sense like, hey, go do this, do that. But there's not like, fill out this worksheet.
Host
This is your assignment, right?
Guest
Right. Especially when I give like, hey, write this down kind of homework. What I usually say is, is listen, if you come back next week and you're like, Eli, I didn't do the homework, I'm not going to be mad at you.
Host
You didn't get an F in therapy.
Guest
Right. This is for you.
Host
Right.
Guest
And if you don't want to grow, okay, that's fine with me. I'm here to help you and to give you the resources. I want you to grow. I want you to do the homework, but I'm not going to be disappointed in you if you don't do this. And so we really have to, I do think that it set a framework in my mind of meeting people where they are. That, and then when you fast forward to my own experiences of dealing with mental health struggles and really my journey through therapy, really recognizing that it doesn't matter how much I want this for you. If you don't want this for you, we're not going anywhere. So I really work—
Host
Absolutely.
Guest
Which makes me work really hard to collaborate, I think, and to get, to get you to buy in, but, but at the end of the If you care deeply about mental health, whether as a therapist or someone seeking support, this message is for you.
Host
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Guest
Uh-huh.
Host
Accommodating?
Guest
I think so. And I think the answer to your question is no. This is where a little bit of like pride is going to come in. I think maybe the first or just another time in this conversation that pride comes in, who knows?
Host
Good.
Guest
Perfect. Um, one of the things that I think that makes me good as a therapist is that I have a very wide and diverse background. And if I had not taken the time that I took to get here, I wouldn't have had that experience. When I was doing my clinical supervision, 2 and a half or 3 years, I think it was that when I was finally doing my marriage and family. Over the course of that clinical supervision, all the other interns that were in my group supervision, they were all one-dimensional in their experience.
Host
Yeah.
Guest
Right. They were social work at a hospital or social work at a nursing home or at a school they were working or a couple were in a private practice. But like, I've gone into people's homes and taken their kids away from them. Right. I've gone into like the worst of the worst in Orange County. Then I got an opportunity to work at a psychiatric hospital. And let me just tell you, as a clinician, there is something very special about watching somebody have a psychotic break.
Host
Tell me more about that. 'Cause please, this is gonna be really really good to hear.
Guest
Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I hang on. I will in a second. Right. And so like working in, uh, the psychiatric hospital, you, I saw people in crisis. I saw, I know exactly what schizophrenia looks like. No one else in my, in my clinical supervision group, none of them knew what it looked like because they'd never seen it before. Right. I know what a manic episode looks like. They've never seen that. Right. And then I also had the benefit of private practice along the way too. So, so I think that had I got it done in 2 years, I wouldn't have had the background of experience that I have that makes me much more rounded because I, we've had a couple people in private practice that were not scary to me, but scary to other people. And I'm just like, they're fine. They're, they're harmless. They're not gonna do anything. And they're like, oh, they're so whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but not really.
Host
And that, that tracks for me of how I've experienced you so far, which was awesome. Which also probably is very comforting to the, you know, they can sense that they can smell that.
Guest
So as far as like psychotic breaks, I mean, ah, man, that's just a special place to be. Those people, people who are experiencing that rather, I don't wanna be like those people.
Host
No, no, I know. Yeah. We know what you mean.
Guest
People who are experiencing that are hurting in a way that is difficult to understand because it's like in another plane, right? It's just a whole different way. Our natural inclination, I think, is to argue about the validity or the truth that they think they are experiencing. And there's just no value in that at all. Just realizing that in your world, when we walk outside, the sky is purple.
Host
Cool.
Guest
Are you thirsty? Did you need me to get you a bottle of water? Like, okay. It's not, As much as I know the sky is blue, they know the sky is purple, right? And so there's, there's not any point in trying to argue with somebody who's having a delusion like that. They're set in it. And—
Host
And that's not the point, probably.
Guest
No, no. Yeah.
Host
It's probably more the point for people who might be uncomfortable as the therapist with that.
Guest
Yeah, absolutely.
Host
Because that's scary because once you once you do what you did, like, okay, sure, the sky's purple, like moving on. That's probably when the real work happens. And I can only imagine how many people don't get to that point because the professional, not necessarily, but could be so stuck on that part of, well, no, that's not reality.
Guest
Yeah. You gotta fix the delusion. No, not really. Like there's medication for that.
Host
I love that you shared that. What are the populations that you work with now? I feel like I know what you're gonna say, but I wanna hear.
Guest
So I don't have the occasion to work with a lot of the, I was gonna say crazy people, but that's kind of demeaning. I don't have the occasion to work with the, um, what's the word? What's the technical name? The high acuity patients, right? That's what we're supposed to call 'em, right? Um, what I work with a lot of now is I work with a lot of couples. Uh-huh. Um, I guess the whole thing about marriage and family and the license and the, and the credentials will pull them in. Right. I have a lot of guys, young 20s, single guys. Um, I have a lot of like dads that are trying to figure things out, husbands that are trying to figure out how to be husbands. I have a handful of teenagers. I honestly, stay away from at this stage of my career. And I only take teenagers on a special occasion because I just, I've paid my dues with kids.
Host
Which you're allowed to have. Yeah.
Guest
Yeah. So I have, I have a lot of young guys and a lot of married couples would be the, the 2 biggest.
Host
I feel like the populations you just described, and I so am not meaning to generalize or, or assume, I know that's such a preface to then me generalizing and assuming when you mentioned like the single guys in their 20s. I kind of feel like, correct me if I'm wrong, that's sometimes the population that very much does not seek as much as others, perhaps counseling. And I am curious, I think you may do— be too humble to say. I think that really speaks to you as what you are presenting and putting out there. And that's awesome because of course we know there are so many people that are not open to seeking counseling. Um, and I could be totally wrong. Maybe every 25-year-old guy is in counseling, but I just didn't think so.
Guest
I do think that that generation is not in therapy very much because while they are in therapy, it's just with ChatGPT.
Host
Right, right, right, right. Yeah. They're in convenient therapy.
Guest
Yeah. Uh, which really is not particularly helpful for the most part. Right. Um, I do think so. I have one client in particular that, uh, He has referred, he's a young guy. He's, he just actually, he just turned 21 a couple weeks ago, but he is like referring people to me left, right, and center because he's just like, you're the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. And I'm like, cool. He told me he hasn't done it yet. He told me that he was gonna make me a Therapist of the Year award to hang on my office.
Host
But like, but I get that because I am like, just, just talking to you, I'm thinking, Who do I know that would be great to send your way? Because I suspect that you would have still been this way. I'm sure your upbringing contributed to it, but I would like to venture to say that you were already you in this way, in this great, relaxed and open and accommodating and authentic times 10 way.
Guest
Yeah.
Host
before your parents started the group home.
Guest
I, that was so long ago. I don't remember, but okay. I won't dispute it.
Host
I said so.
Guest
Right. Sure. The authenticity that you, you're, you got to like, in my like first session disclosure, like that's usually what I say. One of the things I say to my clients is, listen, what you see is what you get. The way that you are seeing me right now as we're talking is exactly how you would see me if you were sitting on the couch over there as a therapist. If I see bullshit, I'm calling bullshit. If I have a question, I'm asking a question. If we need to talk about something, we're gonna talk about something like, yeah, I'm going to be as straightforward and as real with you. And that's all I ask out of you as a client. Right. And I think that's what works.
Host
Yeah.
Guest
For not, not just the younger generation, but with everybody, obviously. But I do think that especially with the younger crowd who, once they finally get out from behind the screen, for them to be able to see the person and know that it's, uh, that's an authentic person. Like, I do think that that creates a lot of credibility and stability.
Host
You can probably see the weight lifted from a lot of people when they, when they put that together, together, like, oh, okay. I can really do this. I, this is, we can do that. Yeah.
Guest
There, there's so many times that, that my clients have been like, I can't believe my therapist just said that to me. And I'm like, I probably shouldn't be a therapist. And they're like, no, we're pretty sure that's why you should be a therapist.
Host
No, exactly though. And I challenge that, which I can't believe I just said, because I typically am not a challenger of people. I do challenge that because I'm thinking back to my, you know, grad school classes of genuine, empathetic, all that. Was it Carl Rogers? I'm probably going to really embarrass myself here.
Guest
If you're talking theory, like—
Host
I am.
Guest
We're gonna embarrass ourselves.
Host
No, I've already embarrassed myself, but, but we—
Guest
Don't embarrass me too.
Host
Don't take me down with you. That is so appropriate. You're not sitting there at the first session saying, well, let me relate to you. This happened at my house, like just totally spilling every self-disclosure, which of course has its place in time, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing in that moment. You're saying, I'm genuine, I'm authentic, I'm— that's what you are. And, and again, I stand by that, that that's not at all— that's a pro. That is such a great thing and absolutely not something that, oh, I shouldn't be a therapist. But that kind of goes back to how you've, how you've experienced yourself or put that out there of no one wants to hear what I have to say.
Guest
Right.
Host
That's that. And I am here to say, no, I do not. I do not accept because that probably, that is what you should be saying. And that's why people come back to you.
Guest
Yeah.
Host
Have you worked with substance use at all? And I ask that because some of the stuff, some of what you shared about your approach is why I couldn't be, couldn't work with substance use. And I wonder about that.
Guest
I've worked with some, I haven't had the occasion to work with them with a lot of substance abuse clients, but I have had several. Um, you know, this is one of those, your therapist shouldn't say this to you kind of things. And I hope he's not watching this. Even if he is, he'll think this is funny. Um, but I had a client that was coming for a while who was a recovering cocaine addict and, uh, he was a really great, interesting guy. I really, really enjoy him as a client. During the session, I picked up a Diet Mountain Dew to take a drink of a Diet Mountain Dew. And he's like, oh, you're drinking Diet Mountain Dew. You're putting that in you. I'm like, you snort cocaine.
Host
That Aspartame.
Guest
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, you snort cocaine and you're giving me shit about Mountain Dew. He's like, this is a good point. Nevermind. Drink Mountain Dew. Noted.
Host
Noted.
Guest
Yeah. I haven't had a lot of occasion to work with substance abuse. But the ones that I have, I feel like they've been able to connect and been successful with during the time that they've, they've been there. Like that guy. And then I had a recovering alcoholic and when they relapsed, which is a part of the process, right? They definitely felt like I needed to know, like, even though I wasn't like their person or whoever they're supposed to let know, they felt as though they had let me down as well. And so they talked to me about it. And we worked our way through that and used that as a building block to continue to move ourselves forward.
Host
Do you gather why I asked that about substance use or not at all?
Guest
So maybe.
Host
Because it, because I think anyone watching this or listening to this would probably agree everything that you've shared about your approach, all of that. is a lot of, again, why I couldn't do that, that type of specific work.
Guest
Uh-huh.
Host
I think that you are able to very likely, and please tell me if I'm off here, confront people in a very non-threatening way. And when I was in school and learning about that particular area of counseling, I, I knew, and then even doing an internship, by mistake within substance abuse. I knew I, I didn't have that. I, and I couldn't get it. I couldn't confront, you know, that was its own issue.
Guest
Yeah.
Host
But I also couldn't confront the non-threatening way that I think, you know, now you're obviously gonna be forced to go get some substance use credential because you have this podcast with this lady.
Guest
I guess so, yeah.
Host
But you just, there's so much about you that in the same way that you relate and do so well with that young 20s male population. You are so, so genuine and so non— what's the word that I just used? God.
Guest
Threatening?
Host
So non-threatening.
Guest
I don't know.
Host
So non-threatening.
Guest
Yeah.
Host
That, like, I honestly think that there's a more significant word for it that, that just seemed so obvious. To me in that moment that, oh my God, he would be— he would get through. Like, talk about being able to get through to some— someone. I guess that's what I'm really getting at. And that kind of ties back to your work, I feel like, with the more acute— you know, when you spent that time working in, like, with people maybe experiencing psychosis or something. It kind of is along the same vein, I feel like, what I'm sensing or identifying in you. Do you know what I mean?
Guest
I think I do. Yeah. And I think I do have the ability to confront people in a way that like is non-threatening where they can be like, oh damn, like really? Yeah, I do think so because there are times I think as a therapist that we have to do that, that we just have to be like, I'm not sure what planet you're on, but it's not this one. Like, this is not at all what we talked about. Like, where have you been for the last 6 months?
Host
Right.
Guest
Right. There is a time and a place to confront our clients at times and to hold them accountable to it. And there is a way to do it that they're never going to see you again. There is a way to do it that's going to keep them coming back. I've only had one client that I called him out and he didn't come back. I'm 100% convinced that's more about his issues than it was about the way that I did it.
Host
Right. Yeah, of course.
Guest
Uh, you're right. I think your assessment is correct that I can, I think I do have that ability to, to, to confront people, um, in a way that they can hear. And I think that that's probably why the couple of substance abuse clients that I've had, I have had some success with because I have been able to get through to them. And they, again, like I said, like they didn't owe me anything when they relapsed, but they felt compelled. They felt like they owed me an explanation, not just that they had relapsed. And I'm like, guys, I don't feel any different about you today than I did yesterday before I found out about this.
Host
And how pivotal that must have been for them though. They may have felt like, oh, I gotta let him know, I have to. But really it, I'm sure, was about so much more. And then you saying that Probably was so, was so much for them. I think that like with confrontation, it typically takes therapists a good amount of time, certainly more than one session, to get to a place where they feel like the client can hear that from them. I would be able to hear that from you in 5 minutes.
Guest
Thank you.
Host
There is something about you, everything you've shared, but also Just, just how you are. Truly, you are just so, again, non-threatening and so along for the ride, it sounds like. I now know more. I may be making this up, but before we hopped on here and started recording, I was making sure I had, you know, I knew how to pronounce your last name, I had your credential right, just to make sure I didn't misrepresent you. And when I asked confirmation that you were an LMFT, Mm-hmm. I felt like, and maybe I'm making this up, there was a small pause, like not that you weren't one, but a something. And maybe that didn't really happen, but in my head it did. And then when you explained more of you, it makes so much sense because I feel like you don't necessarily identify as the credential or the specific counseling licensure that you happen to have.
Guest
Right.
Host
I may be again wrong. about that pause, but am I correct?
Guest
It, you are. It's funny because like, gosh, I'm gonna alienate every colleague and potential colleague there is on the planet. No, you won't.
Host
But, and if you feel like it, we'll take it outta here. Don't worry.
Guest
Well, we don't have to. I don't care that much.
Host
Yeah.
Guest
I don't understand people who have 17 letters after their name. Okay. Do you have the credentials? Did you earn them? Sure. Who gives a fuck? I mean, really, because nobody knows what they mean but you. And if you really need that pat on your back, I guess put all of the letters back there.
Host
Sure.
Guest
Um, I, there was a time that I was like, I'm not even putting LMFT, but then after I finally earned it, I was like, well, I'm at least using that because I worked really hard to get there, but I'm not defined by the license that I have. I could be as effective with whatever license I had gotten. I think now this is probably where pride comes in again. Like I've been able to reach the point that I don't think I have to have the certification to feel like I'm qualified to talk to you about something.
Host
And that probably is huge for you from where your thoughts were before.
Guest
Yes.
Host
Like, thank you. I mean, I'm glad you said this actually on recording, because if you ever need to hear that again, you can just watch that part.
Guest
Yeah, absolutely.
Host
I remember when I was trying to decide what exact degree I was going to get, whether it was gonna be like school counseling, mental health counseling, family counseling. I obviously recognized the courses were quite similar, but you, if I understand correctly, did those and then some. You've got it all in the— done.
Guest
Sure. It was just dumb luck. That's what it was. I just took so long to finish that I had to find classes to fill. And I'm like, why not marriage and family classes? Because it sounds cool.
Host
Did you find like more enjoyment in those, in those courses? And obviously it's totally fine to say no.
Guest
Full transparency.
Host
Only, that's the only option.
Guest
I, I graduated with my master's 12 years ago. I don't remember which classes I enjoyed more than the others.
Host
Well, I don't either. It was so easy for me to ask you that as the person who's asking the questions. I don't either. I totally put you on the spot with that.
Guest
It's one of the, like I, I started my master's in 2007 and I, and I finished in 2014. I remember. a handful of classes that I did enjoy, and it was more about the individual experiences in a moment in those classes. And then I remember professors that I liked along the way more than anything. Um, even one of my favorite professors tried to get me kicked out for plagiarism. It was kind of cool, like how that worked out.
Host
No one ever says, tried to get me kicked out for plagiarism. It was kind of cool. And you did. And I love it.
Guest
Yeah. Yeah. That was a whole thing. Then she ended up being like the, uh, what's the advisor for the mental health counseling program. So like, she ended up like signing off on my graduation. It was kind of fun. That's, that's why it was fun because it ended up being something that it, that it was what, what it ended up being. And, and funny enough, like This may or may not surprise you. Like for, for years and years and years, I identified as, uh, an extrovert. And I, at one time in class, I said something about having, you know, scored as an extrovert. And she was like, you're not an extrovert, you're an introvert. And I was like, I don't think you know me very well at all. And then I spent the next several years like reflecting on that. I hate to admit, but she saw something that no one else at the time saw. Yeah.
Host
I was getting defensive of you, interestingly, because of her being so bold to call that out. But that's so interesting. And also so interesting that you were able to, even though it may not have been the next day, that you were able to say like, oh, like, wait a second. That's so interesting. And I'm waiting for you to say, and now she's my best friend.
Guest
No, I haven't talked to her since I graduated, actually. Um, that was one of those things that I was like, that was, and I've never told her this, so if she somehow is watching this podcast, maybe she knows who she is. I don't know. Um, like that was transformative as far as like a personality perspective on me having, beginning to better understand myself and who I am like that, that really set the stage for me to to begin to understand myself better.
Host
That's amazing. I love that. Well, now I'm not mad at her anymore.
Guest
Right.
Host
Now, now it's—
Guest
Well, neither, neither am I at this point.
Host
Well, you— I don't think you ever were. I think I just was. I want to ask you one last thing. We usually do, and I feel like you've kind of given us this already, but we do this new now voice notes part of the podcast toward the Yeah. Where I like to ask people what if they were to leave themselves a voice note, and you pick back when you started grad school or when you were in that period of struggling during grad school, something that you would like to tell yourself or something that you would like to tell other therapists who may identify as what, with what you went through. And I'll make this more concise, but when I was in grad school halfway through, for me it was 1 year in, I realized I didn't want to be a therapist. And I was like, oh, uh-oh, you know, now what? So I did finish because I didn't have other stuff going on and I knew I needed to finish.
Guest
Right.
Host
And then the same thing happened with licensure. I started getting my hours, passed my test, but then I didn't finish. And I'm so— I was so glad in your story where you said that you did Finish that. But anyway, so share with us something that you would maybe tell someone that was in a position that you were in that time.
Guest
Okay. So I got one thing that I would say to myself and somebody who was similar to where I was, and then something that I would like to say to new therapists. How about that? First thing I would say, I would leave, if I could leave a voicemail to myself, um, a couple months ago, So right after, um, I had started my own practice, I was talking with a friend of mine, my oldest son's girlfriend's uncle. And so we were just kind of getting to know each other. Right. And he said, telling him a little bit about my background. And he said, well, what if you could do anything different? What would you do different? Right. And I'm like, ah, that's, you know, that's one of those questions. It's not really fair. Cause if I did anything different, then I wouldn't be where I am kind of thing.
Host
Especially for you.
Guest
Yeah. I said, I think the only thing that I would want to do differently is I would want to believe in myself sooner. I think that if I could have got my shit together and realized what I had, I, instead of being at the beginning of my career, I could be halfway through my career or whatever at this stage of the game. And so I think that what I would want to say to myself back then, or to anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation, was believe in yourself Sooner. Don't wait until the last minute. You are in the position you're in for a reason. Listen to what everybody else is telling you about yourself, because sometimes the most accurate assessment of us doesn't come from ourselves.
Host
Nailed it. That was good.
Guest
And then what I would say to new therapists is don't take things personally. Clients might get mad. They might storm out of the room. They might, you know, have a visceral reaction to you. Nine out of ten times, it isn't about us. It's about something else that's going on inside of them. We've tapped into something, and they just need to have an emotional reaction, and that's okay. It's not about us. This was something that I really picked up when I was working at DCF, Department of Children and Families, and I used to tell people when they'd be mad at me, listen. Listen, I've been at your door for 30 seconds. You don't know me well enough to be mad at me. Give me about 20 minutes and you might be mad at me.
Host
But as of now, no.
Guest
But right now you're just mad at the process, right? And if you need to be mad at the process, whatever. You're not hurting my feelings, okay? And so that's what I would just say to new therapists is don't, don't take things personally. Just let, let your clients emote in the way that they need to emote. And then deal with it, um, in, in an appropriate way and, and work your way through it. It's not, it's not about you. It's about the client.
Host
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Wasn't there one more?
Guest
You were—
Host
there was one more, right?
Guest
I gave you 2. Do you want another one?
Host
3. I do.
Guest
Oh my gosh.
Host
I thought you said 3.
Guest
Now you're gonna make me think of one on the fly.
Host
I've got— I, sorry.
Guest
It's Lucy.
Host
It's, it's happening.
Guest
Oh, here's the other thing. So I was looking back to see, Like what I put for my own voice notes. It's okay to not know all of the answers.
Host
Oh, thank you. Yes.
Guest
The whole Carl Rogers, the whatever, you know, that we were talking about a few minutes ago, right? If your clients, because now with ChatGPT and the accessibility of the internet, it is possible that your client could hyperfocus on something and come into a session knowing more about a particular subject than you do in this moment. Because we're generalists for the most part, right? We know a, a little bit or a medium amount about a lot of different things, right? And so you get that one OCD client who like hyper-focused or ADHD client that just spent the last 3 nights, you know, reading whatever. And they come in and they'll be like, so I'm just, you know, I wrote a research paper on whatever. What do you know about that? And I'm like, not a damn thing. Like, what do you mean? Teach me.
Host
Yeah.
Guest
What do you know?
Host
Yeah.
Guest
It's, it's, it's okay to not know the answers and to be like, I don't know, tell me what you have found out about it. Let me do some research. Like I have a client actually just yesterday, I'm working with him. He's trying to like figure himself out. Like what are his issues to help him fix his marriage? Um, he's been to marriage counseling, individual counseling over a course of years. None of it's really worked. And this is almost like a last ditch effort kind of thing.
Host
Yeah.
Guest
He's been coming for a couple months. He texted me on Wednesday and he said, hey, I wanna start talking about attachment styles. Right. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm not an attachment style expert, right? And I'm like, okay, well, what attachment style do you think you are? And he told me, and I said, okay, well, here's a quiz that I give people. Take this quiz and bring it with you tomorrow and let's talk about it. And so he had, what spurned this is he was like doom scrolling and he came across a YouTube Short of this therapist who like focuses on attachment styles. And so he had had kind of like fallen down a rabbit hole of some of her stuff and found a lot of her material to be very helpful in describing him. But then from a practical perspective of like, okay, what do you do with this kind of thing? And I've never heard of this person before. Right. And again, I, I know a little bit about attachment styles. I don't, I'm not an expert or anything like that. It's one of the areas that I'm, I'm reading a book about it right now randomly, because it's something I want to know more about.
Host
Mm-hmm.
Guest
So my response to him was, is, okay, let me, who is this? And so I found her while we were talking. I was like, I'm not just playing on my phone. I'm looking for this person. Right. So I found her website and I emailed her link to me because she has a number of free resources. I was like, so, you know, I emailed her stuff to me. So you keep looking at this attachment style stuff. I'm going to do my homework to see, because you said this stuff resonates with you. So I'll do some research on her stuff and see how we can incorporate her stuff into our therapy sessions. You know, no sense in reinventing the wheel kind of thing. But, but if you don't know the answer to a question, it's okay to be like, I'm not really sure. Let me do some research on that. And let, let me see, because if you don't know and you pretend like it's okay to like fake it till you make it, right? I'm not saying don't, don't do that. Right. You can do that. But like, if you get outta your depth, you're gonna ruin your credibility with your clients.
Host
Okay.
Guest
And so it, it means a lot more to people to just be like, hold on, let me, I mean, again, just pull your phone out and do some research in the moment. Several of my clients have have brought up things like that that I'm not real sure about. I'm like, I don't know, let's see. And we'll do a quick search and we'll, we'll read it and we'll talk about it. Not a single one of them has gotten mad at me that I pulled out my cell phone and did some research and educated myself on what they wanted to talk about in the therapy session.
Host
I love that you're saying this now because that is so— I cannot imagine how many therapists experience this now with AI. I know what I'm doing myself when I am on ChatGPT at night.
Guest
Yep.
Host
And I've got a counseling background, but in that moment, I'm looking up what medication I need to take and what I could have, you know, like diagnose me. And I know better, but those are the things that someone clearly might show up across from you saying like, hey, tell me about attachment theory.
Guest
Yeah.
Host
Because they spent the whole night learning about them.
Guest
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What you may find, like, especially with attachment theories, is there's like 17 different names for attachment theories, right? And so there are the descriptions of the 4 main ones are pretty common, but what you call the 4 ones is not consistent across the board, right? And so that, that happens with other areas of things too. That, that you're like, we're talking about the same thing, but we're using different words. So like, let's get on the same page.
Host
Yeah. Right. This is just a new word that people are using for this.
Guest
Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
Host
Amazing. Thank you so much. And thank you. Amazing work thinking up that third one on the spot. It was really important. Thank you.
Guest
I'm pretty good at what I do.
Host
Say it again. Say it again.
Guest
I'm pretty good at what I do.
Host
Did everyone hear that? And everyone in this situation should be you, because I'm so glad that you have come to that conclusion, even though I, as a stranger, and then I'm sure people in your life wish that you saw in yourself sooner. But it all happened when it needed to.
Guest
It did. You're right about that.
Host
Thank you. Thank you.
Guest
What?
Host
I'm not that— I'm often not right.
Guest
That's why I Well, you were right about that for sure.
Host
Thank you, Eli, so much for coming on. Oh, unconditional positive regard.
Guest
There you go. That definitely is Rogers.
Host
Thank you so much, Eli. Everyone, we will be linking Eli's contact information as long as he gives me permission to, um, ways to reach out to him, some resources that we've talked about. And stand by for round 2, which I will probably make happen next week because I'm excited. But thank you again. Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you to that grad school teacher for calling you out. Yeah, thanks.
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