Employee Assistance Programs and the Evolving Role of Workplace Mental Health

Hello and welcome back to Therapist Voices at Reach Link. Reach Link is a digital mental health counseling platform. My name is Jessica Herurwitz and I oversee our network of providers. Today we have a guest that I'm really really excited about. Wendy Wner is a true true champion in the EAP employee assistance program field. Uh she's been in the field for about 25 plus years. now is the CEO and founder of Balancing Life's Issues, which focuses on corporate training, work life balance, a lot of other really good stuff. Um, Wendy, thank you so much for being here. I've told you that I've wanted to meet you for a really long time now. Uh, so I figured if I can't tempt her with a podcast, then I'll have to find some other way. So, thank you for being with us. Um, I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about balancing life's issues. guess how the company got started, anything that you're open to sharing with us.

Yeah, it's funny because prior to this, Jess, you said, "Oh, I'm I'm so used to telling this story." And actually, I very rarely tell the real story. So, I Yeah. Um, you heard it here first. I you exactly a little bit of an exclusive over here, but um I know many of you listening and and maybe Jess, you'll relate is um you know, I have an undergraduate degree in teaching. I have a graduate degree in counseling. I think that's pretty standard. Although when I was in graduate school um at University of Pennsylvania, I really started to focus on um work life issues. That may not sound so edgy today, but 30 years ago, it was like suck it up and go to work or go home. I mean, do one or the other. So, um and I was lucky enough to do some EAP trainings. So, let me just set the stage. 30 years ago, there were five trainings.

There was a very few of us and we went around and we taught. I was like, "This is the best job that I've ever had in my entire life." And then my world exploded and my husband left me. Um, I had a five, six, and 8-year-old. And I remember saying, "I don't know what to do, and how hard can it be to figure it out?" And that's really when the light bulb went out where I realized that from an educational point of view, we really were not addressing life's problems or life's issues. And that's when I became a total devoted employee assistance um fan because that is what we do. And so it's been a journey unfortunately in the in the some way that people have so many different things that they're dealing with over the years. You know, of course, the major, you know, tragedy September 11th certainly hit the world hard.

Um, but I I do think that people forget or or don't recognize how vital the EAP conversation is. you know, whether it be that phone call or whether it be the the one-on-one or whether it be what we do, which is supply trainings and educations, you know, how to buy your first home. I mean, I don't know why anybody thinks we should know that, right? I mean, you go to Google today and there's one billion answers. And yes, we have AI, which we certainly embrace, but at the end of the day, there's nothing like somebody getting on a call or getting into a classroom or getting on a Zoom or WebEx saying, "Hey, I went through something that you went through. Why don't we share the experience together?" Right. How how did then when you got really immersed in all this and EAP is is my heart as well, so we're speaking the same language.

How did you get to this point where you you realized, okay, this is a need. This is not there. All right. So, there's a little overthinking on your part there. Just a smith, right? Um, luckily for the world, the sort of running joke is I never think through anything. Um, I just throw spaghetti at the wall. Um, and I say I need that. I need that. I need that. And so, you know, that's where it went from five classes to 50 to 100 to now at like 600. Um, because I I don't overthink the idea that we just need so much different help. And adult education, which is fascinating to me, right? So, if you're a doctor today, you go back every year um for schooling or a dentist or a lawyer, but the truth is in business, we're never really told we have to go back to school. We could literally for decades never take another class.

Just let that sit. Which sounds so bizarre when you're thinking about therapists with all their CEUs and in EAP or PGH's. So you're really creating this opportunity. I always think in this virtual world now it's it's got to be so different for therapists to not be in a group practice and have all right you have these cus you know you've got to take this one where do you go I guess you can call on Wendy your field is gluted right like so you know this not everybody a should go to a therapist or needs a therapist or can get a therapist appointment but the other thing is that there's some things that training classes like educational classes supplement So, you know, an example is a manager finds out that um an employee has been late to work the last 10 times because their child has just told them that they're gay and they're having these conversations.

Of course, they can go to therapy. That's certainly a valued option. In the ideal world, maybe everybody gets to see a therapist however many times they want and whenever they want. But in the real world, that doesn't happen, right? So facilitating a group discussion where that manager learns how to speak to the employee and gets them to help in a group discussion, it's an unbelievable light bulb going off where you know that there's another good alternative um to supplement, right? And I I I love the fact that we're focusing on I have this whatever it would be and sometimes it's super small. You know, one of my my um examples that I use that really resonates with me is um although my father has been uh dead for 14 years, it's this huge hole in my heart and I I so I related to the story when one of um the participants said, "I broke my I broke a mug this morning and I can't handle it."

And I knew immediately that mug was a loved one's mug. Yep. And you know that that's not just any mug. That's not any mug. And it is it's even hard for me to talk about it because I can relate to the idea that something really broke, right? And I think grief is one of the areas that we know, you know, we have so many I mean I'll say the bad word. We say so many stupid things. you know, you can handle this or if you bring God into it, God doesn't give you more than you can handle or they're in a better place or so many platitudes that make things worse and it's not I think that person is is is they're just ignorant, right? They haven't been educated. Yeah. And for so for you to be able to come in and have have the wherewithal to to know that that's not what's going to be helpful. And you see that that managers, someone in in this position, you know, they're they're trained to be a manager.

They're trained to oversee this team, all of a sudden they've shown up in 2026 where it's expected to Well, you wait a minute, you just added 2026. So, let's just say we went Sorry, you just threw a big curveball over there, Jess. Because right now, what happened was we're scared to say anything, right? Right. Right. So you can't say a thing. So because you say so then you're stuck being the person who didn't say anything. And I in every fiber of my being believe we should be able to talk about anything to anybody anywhere. Do I think we need help getting there? Yes. Yes, but I absolutely feel and by the way if I said the wrong thing which anyone who knows me knows I have many times knows that I've learned how to recreate or re redirect or say wow Jess did I that was I didn't realize that right I didn't realize you know I I shouldn't have said that or can you help educate and why did I say that wrong instead of it spiraling into you know I said something racist or sexist or gender right we go there So I think more that now than ever um in this world we're at and I will say something sort of edgy or controversial is we'll see behavior on TV and it doesn't matter who we'll see inappropriate disrespectful behavior and somehow that has given permission for other people to do the same behavior.

Yeah. You follow you follow the lead. Oh, this is okay. This is okay to say or do. Then this is appropriate for me. And it might even be better for me to follow suit to fit in. Yep. And what happens then is it really, you know, um can really hurt someone's feelings. And once you're really hurting someone's feelings, then that's when real chaos, right? Um, I can't tell you how many times in our world, because it is predominantly men at the more higher level, I've had to stop conversations by saying, "I'm I'm I'm going to give everybody a pass or get out of jail card for a minute, but let's stop the conversation and readjust it where my gender isn't part of this conversation." And I it's it's always interesting to me because people say, "Oh, Wendy, you're confident or you're outgoing, extroverted."

That's all bologoney. Nobody feels good doing that. No. Right. Right. And that but that genuiness, that authenticity, I can already tell that is that is what has to be a huge success of what you're doing. I Well, thank you. That's a sweet thing to say. I think um I think it's way less stressful to be honest. You know, Right. I mean, if I cry at a meeting, um, and it's a genuine emotional response, I'm not sucking it up, right? So, I appreciate the nice words, but I do think I I I think at the end, we really um, look, we're very lucky. You and I work in a world that helps make the world better. Yeah. And so, the mission and the passion 30 years later is stronger than ever. So, on the days I don't want to get out of bed, which are many days, right? right now, frigid weather, whatever it would be.

I say, "Wow, you know what? Somebody may listen to this and say, I'm tired of being somebody that I'm not. I'm going to take a step back and be me." And and I do not want to in any way make that sound like that's easy. Um, I know someone once said to me, "Oh, you make money on on a a divorced single mom." And I mean, I started a company based upon that for sure because it was one particular journey. Um, especially because I happen to be Jewish and at that time maybe more common now, but Jewish families didn't deal with divorce. I was working, you know, in some different communities. So, it was a little bit of a stigma, too. Well, more than a little, but a lot. Um, and so that added to the complexity of it. Um, I think what we do is we give voice and real strategies for how to go in a direct way.

And sometimes, by the way, it's simply like, oh, have you read this book? Have you watched this Netflix? Have you done like I the other day I watched Lily? So, shout out to the to the documentary about Lily, who is a you you probably won't know the story, but it's a story about um the woman who drove the Equal uh Pay Act. and I will regularly plug myself back into these trailblazers that we've forgotten about. That's what the EAP field does and it should be inclusive to everyone. So, I know we've been criticized. Are we inviting the conservative right? Are we inviting the liberal left? We're we're inviting everybody into this conversation. Everyone's coming. Yeah. Everyone's coming to the party. Just getting to know you better though, especially with your your authenticity, but also the strength.

I think those things combined are very very powerful. Well, I'm going to tell you where the strength comes from though, please. Um, strength comes from for me and and I think to a certain extent I think many experts would say this from really truly being educated. Yeah. So, learning, right? I mean, so last year I had heard about a Harvard class with um Robert Waldinger who's done the largest study ever on happiness. Um which for you and I super relevant, right? And and by the way, I just have to say it was an amazing class, but it was not easy. I somehow thought it was going to be easier. So it wasn't. Um but I it replugged me back in because when I'm in the room, I feel really good that I know something like I have learned something. Yes. Yeah. So I think sometimes we forget that strength comes from really truly saying I have continued my education.

I have continued learning about this field that is changing um and reading the paper you know following on LinkedIn which is a huge valuable resource in our mental health space. What are people doing? And the last thing I'll say is I think one of the interesting things is um really truly saying how often do you say a week I changed my mind. I was wrong. A week five minutes from now I will have changed my entire and not about something insignificant about something huge. That is a sign of a true leader. Oh thank you. Thank you. It's not how I took it. That's not how I thought about myself with that though. Someone that's a agile that's willing to see other people's perspectives is to say, "Oh, I what what like I never thought about that. We just did a podcast about tattoos. I had no idea how many people have t healing tattoos, breast tattoos.

Oh, it's millions." This documentary that this woman is making is about healing tattoos. And I was like, I had no idea. I need to learn about this. Now, remember, when I started my career, tattoos weren't even allowed at IBM. Well, I think it's also something that we as therapists can also take a step back and say, I mean, I don't practice very much anymore. I do some coaching, but when when we're willing to really sit with someone and say, I don't understand your experience at all. Right? I think that's a little hard though, right? There's an ego. There's um and I think add to women have a certain I mean I can share with you how many times I think I've done a really great speech. I've worked hundreds of hours and someone will come up to me afterwards and say oh you changed your hair color like that is what you just got like that was the big point.

Yes. My roots are no longer gray. You I'm so glad you noticed always a different color. It's been black brown everything in. And I think so I think that is a frustrating journey sometimes what you wear you know if it's a brand or I think those things are a lot of noise that can affect everybody I think in women today certainly the Botox conversation the facelift conversation and I'm not talking about weight loss from a medical point of view but cosmetic you know point of view um I think those things have really really affected us and a lot of the noise that's done a lot of damage to our deal. Well, I'm always amazed at how people define an issue or a problem in their life. Um, and I I do think that's about a perspective conversation, but I also think it wouldn't be a true complete conversation, Jess, if we didn't say, you know, the news anxiety and the political anxiety that we're all feeling on different levels is part of what has made today so challenging.

How has that just learning more about your company and what you do? How has that impacted your company? How has that been for you, for your staff, how what has that been like? I mean, look, the the the journey of we've been in the DEI space. I worked under President Carter on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum with Ellie Wiselle. So, I've been in the DEI space since I was oh my god 11. I mean I worked in Washington when I was 18. I'm first generation American, you know, I mean, so there's no question that the emotional conversation around DI having said that, people often surprise when I say things like I do believe it has to be done very well and I do believe that it there wasn't there was right so I think the conversation had to change it shouldn't be deleted I mean right it should be readjusted so for me you asked me a specific question I compare it to climbing 17 Mount Everest half.

So, I'm continuing climbing the fight, the fight, the fight, the fight with the facts. Anti-semitism is the highest it's ever been. We know what happens when that happens. We see what's happening um with, you know, racism in this country and, you know, so we continue. I recently went to West Africa. One of the reasons I went to West Africa and to some remote places was I wanted to feel like what it was like to be the only white person. And let me tell you, I could tell it to you, Jess, but it does not explain that feeling of, "Wow, I really am the only white person in this entire I know it's impossible to put into words, but what did it if you had to?" I would say I have a new empathy, a really new empathy because even though I'm Jewish, we we don't have to wear that, right? It's easier to to So, I think that has really heightened my skill of what does it feel like to be that?

And then it's changed my behavior in that I'm very conscious when somebody is the only black or the only brown or the only Asian. I immediately go over to make sure they're not alone. I change my behavior and I do talk about it. I absolutely believe that we need to address that. Well, this how are you feeling? You may not be uncomfortable. Some people are really used to it. Other people are like, "Wow, thank god you came over because you know I was feeling uncomfortable." But it's I think the talking about it though that's that's what sets that kind of behavior aside that you are not going to just go home and think, "Oh god, what was I supposed to do? Did I offend you? You did what what everyone would want, what everyone would encourage." Yes. Ask me questions. Try anything you can to feel what it's like to be to be me as much as you possibly can.

Exactly. And that's really, you know, what the DEI world. So I think that was one thing. I think now we're readjusting as you know the food plate is gone and we're readjusting to a food pyramid and those of us are in the workplace wellness are like okay wait a minute and and I think the answer for that one is what is the glimmer there you know therapists always talk about glimmers right so tell me the glimmers and I think there's something interesting to say about could we eat more protein or can we learn from this sure why not let's let's go with that right there's no question that anybody in the EAP field is living eating and breathing change faster than the Indie 500. Like, what's going to happen today? Throw it over here because I have no clue where it's going. No idea. It could be it.

Um, I do believe very strongly in um being very clear on your values. Um, it would be for us at BLI, we don't work with gun manufacturers. Um, that was a choice that Beline made after the New Town tragedy and that's something that we've all agreed to as a team. It's not a right or wrong. It doesn't mean I don't believe in the NRA or or the Constitution or the right to bear arms or any of that. I have a very clear vision of who works well with our values. And Jeff, people in our field, they want to be liked. And so it's a really hard disconnect, right? If everybody likes you, you're probably doing something wrong. You're totally doing something wrong, right? If everybody says, "Oh, I love Jess and I love Wendy. I want to hear it, but I know that I probably am not being myself." Yeah. And who wants that?

The first time you fire someone or the first time, and it's another reason that we grew the company, right? So, we have 800 different trainers, subject matter experts that go out. Many are way better than me. Um, many are very different than me. And I always say it's a little like online dating, right? Like swipe right, swipe left. Um, I am a terrible scripted um speaker. If you give me a script and say Wendy, read from this. I I try I I you know other people super great to me. Okay. So I think what's important about it, same thing with picking a therapist, you know, it's not the right there's one right way for everyone. It's a match in life. It's a it's no different than picking a significant other. But I do think some people make the mistake of saying that they can work with everyone. So if you come to our parenting classes, there's a screen or a slide or a beginning that we absolutely say we believe in unconditional love.

And for those parents that come to our classes that do not believe in unconditional love, they are not welcome in our world. So we will not allow them to have a conversation about, well, I'm only going to love my child if they become a lawyer or a doctor. You know, we're very clear on that conditional love if they're not gay, if they're not trans, if they're not, you know, a conservative. And by the way, there's a lot of that going on now where the parents may be super liberal and the kids are super conservative or vice versa, right? So unconditional love goes all the way around. How how has that been? I'm I feel like that's probably when so much work is about to happen. Hopefully someone's then going to see a therapist or something to work it out. But when you set that boundary of, you know, this is not what we do here, right?

How has that gone? Um I think those those people, and you know this, they're not coming to hear what you have to say. They're coming to hear that they were right. Right. And so that's not going to be a fight you're going to win. And I think worse than that, the child demands and deserves more. The child deserves unconditional love. And if you're willing to hear how we define it, great. If not, take a pass. Go outside. Figure out when you get your headsp space ready. And you know, I know it's a crude example and nobody likes it, but it's like losing weight. Anything you have to get your mind in the game. Do you really want to Are you ready to make the change? Do you want to quit smoking? Do you want to quit drinking? Do you want to be a better parent, a better spouse? We'll get you there. But you got to come with that.

I want to. I tell you, I think if you ask me, one of the most successful stories that I've done is with a pharmaceutical company where the father had dis um dis unccommunicated his son um for a lot of good reasons. By the way, the son had a drug problem. many many like very challenging reasons. When I say good, I don't mean good but you know strong reason. Sure. And um he was willing and he took the classes. We did a series of six classes and they reunited. Um and unfortunately the child didn't recover. The child was an addict and the child ended up falling not suicide um but falling on a hike and died. And the father wrote us a letter saying I had those last conversations and I would never have had those last com he never unfortunately made him not be an addict because that's a different journey.

Yeah. But for the father who was a survivor he didn't he his child didn't live with the huge regret of I never got to tell him again how much I love him or care. That's what we're looking for, right? Can't change everything, although I want to, but we can change some things. Do you see the company changing, growing? I'm sure the the current climate I don't just mean weather climate, although I know you've had some snow. Um, do you how do you see that going for you? What's the progress of your, if I may be so bold to ask, yeah, I'll tell you, I think the EAP world is in for a bit of a fight. As you know, there's venture capitalist money. There's a lot of different things that have never had. People make money on mental health today. Um, and I don't mean a little bit of money. There are those that sit around the table that are talking about how much each patient is worth.

So, I think it's a a little bit of a internal civil war. Um, I think those of us that are on the one side of it, we're a B-certified company. We bring it to a table and I challenge the other ones to do the same because it'll never work for them. So, I think that's the first thing. I think there has to be a grounding of why did you get into the mental health space and why did you get into the AAP world and we need to really talk to clients about what do they want? Is this a checklist? Are they just doing this because it's a checklist? Okay, let's convince them. So, I think this is going to be the year I call it the year of persuasion. I love that. Can we coin that? Yeah. I will give you the credit if we can just trademark that. Look, Jess, I'm excited. You're a young, incredibly intelligent person that was drawn to this field.

That's what we need. We need the Jesses of the world to continue the No, seriously, we can't walk into a room and see everybody like me, 64, over 60, you know, yeah, we're great people, but we need the youth of the world to truly want to make the world better. And that's why I need to learn from you. No pressure. But that is why seeking out mentors and look, there's so many days where I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm done. Why didn't I pick a career where I could enter data or or something that didn't tap into my emotions, which are their own mess? You know, I'm human, but I just know here I am. I'm not done yet. And this this is a field the EAP field in particular welcomed me in a very strong way. And I'm not done yet. Not that I can change everything, but things are not where I want to leave them.

But you can change a lot more than you realize. I think that's also very encouraging. You know, my little company talks to three million people a year. You know, we do 40,000 trainings. you know, the re the reach literally is is much um you know, years ago we did have problem getting people coming to our classes. Today we don't I mean so I think that piece we're handing you a really solid baton. I would really mentor and encourage you to a pick the fights that are important to you. Can't fight everything. I would say pick the two or three that you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to I don't like the expression die on the hill, but the idea of I'm going to stay with those." And then I would also remind you, you really need to make sure that you have your other life, your work life super good.

Correct me if I'm wrong. That is a piece of just from what I've heard about you, what I've seen you speak about, that's a piece I know that you're very passionate about. How does that tie into into your company, into your It's everything. It's a I can't name the healthcare company, but when I took over the contract about 10 years ago, my kids were younger, um my dad, well, I guess it was more than 15 years ago. Anyway, I would return a lot of emails from my cell phone and um I got called to go to the corporate headquarters and they said, "This is unacceptable behavior. You know, we want you to return the emails from a computer." And I was like, "Why? What difference does it possibly make to you? Is there any problem with my email? Was there any?" And they're like, "Well, we don't do it that I'm like, well, you rearrange and it was a battle to show them that flexible.

This is way before co. That's the that's a really important point that this is before the only loan I've ever taken in my company was for a BlackBerry years ago because I recognized that we needed to be accessible. So, I do think we need to be accessible, but if I'm in TJ Maxx with my grandson and I'm I'm able to do it, if it works for me, then that's part of it, right? So, if you follow my LinkedIn right now, this idea of remote working, which is Zooie, it's a mess over here. I know I I sometimes forget the hours that the teams are working because one is going to football practice, one going to basketball, one is going But they have trained their clients who are corporate America to know exactly when they can be reached, right? And they're 100% reliable. And that's when you you get someone's best.

That's exactly what how about that? No one thought, you know, you no lying, right? There's no like the, you know, oh, I, you know, the Monday after Super Bowl, uh, I I feel sick instead of, yeah, I went to a Super Bowl party and I over ate or whatever, you know. So, I I think that's the first thing. But let me tell you, the studies don't show that health care professionals are big into self-care. So, you know, I don't know how well you're sleeping at night. I don't know how healthy you're eating. I don't know how much you're exercising. You know, at the 10 year mark, we do the Pelaton bikes. I'm not shouting Pelaton out because I have my own issues with them, but I think anything that gets you up and moving, I wish they would have better representation on their their trainers. Um, I'm constantly writing to them to say, why don't they have normal people doing trainings there?

You know, I would say as you grow in your leadership voice, you want to make sure that they know, oh, I went to bed at 9 last night. Oh, I ate more protein. Oh, I went out with my family. Do you find challenge is what plugs us back in? And even I'm going to use the dog as an example because you can see him running around. I I'll tell you when a light bulb went off many years ago. Well, first of all, I did not grow up with pets. I didn't get pets until I got divorced and I had read a lot about pet therapy for trauma and I started getting pets and if you go to Mayo Clinic, you'll see they have dogs, tons of pet therapy. My son is a surgeon there, you know, all these different things. So, so usually he's somewhere in the background. But funny one second story is um I was doing a speech for a Fortune Five CL client and there was about 9,000 people on the speech and it wasn't going well.

Four minutes into it um I could tell and you pretty much know also people were hanging up. There was a And so I I put the dog up, this little teeny six pound rescue dog, and all of a sudden people like, "Oh my god, I have one too, and I have a" And then all it just broke every wall down. And we had this dialogue. The conversation was about loneliness, which of course is one of the biggest pandemics today. And the CEO was a very stoic kind of person said to me, "I don't understand what happened." And I said, "What happened was real life." Yes. And it's messy. And so I don't try to pretend that the dog is not here or there's sounds in the background. I don't apologize for interruptions. I just welcome them as bring it on. We're in the EAP world. It's a freaking mess over here. And you're then relatable.

You're you're like I feel like you're like me. Oh my gosh. She knows that struggle too, right? That's I that is one of the best things that this world we're in right now with all the virtual stuff has brought. the authenticity, the genuine, the awkward, the funny stuff that you can the camaraderie. Why that that you remember the BBC guy where the kid came in during I was about to bring I was just about to bring that up to see if you had seen that. I see that. I mean, we use that in all our talks. We're like, that's what people want to see. Phenomenal. You do not need to see perfection because it doesn't exist and it's intimidating. I do always wish that guy, that newscaster, I think it was a newscaster, I wish that we could have seen him laugh or like, oh my gosh, because we saw the sheer panic on his face and then his wife getting the kid.

Phenomenal. It's funny, Jess, because when you pick mentors, one of the thing is to be really, really, really careful, right? Um, I had picked a mentor a number of years ago that I I idolized, which is not a good thing. And we were at we were at breakfast. She had the most beautiful suit. She looked beautiful. And I was like, "Oh my god, I want to you know, where did you get your suit?" Her suit was $21,000. She is no longer the idol. And I realized that I was trying to be something and idolizing a value that I would never have or really honestly never want. And then I understood, yeah, that's a beautiful, you know, a $21,000 suit is beautiful. First of all, single mother of three kids never doing that. And second of all, I have no desire for that. No, right. But then don't be careful for what you look for.

That's why the influencer market is very challenging today because we're all influenced. But even in our therapy, even in our EIP world, you know, we have a we have a secret sauce, right? So, everyone that comes on got to have degrees, they've got to be credentialed, they have to have 10 years of experience, but then they have to have the story. So, if it's a parenting, they've got to have kids. If it's a wellness story, they have to have their own wellness journey. If it's a breast cancer, they have to have had or been around that because that's what makes it different. You have to have that suit. You have to have that fancy suit. Did you Did you pivot? Did you pivot mentors? I I I mean nicely. I just said, you know, I've really appreciated what I learned and and I do. I appreciate everybody along in my career that I've learned, but I also know that it's not helpful to my headspace.

I suit probably gave her the confidence. Oh, and while I appreciate that and I think that may be true, that's not what I want. I don't want my hair to give me my confidence. I don't want my outfit to give me I want my brains. No, we have to get a peak of that dog though. Hello. So, he's a rescue dog. And if you talk about my great Say hi, Folly. If you talk about my grief, um, and I know this may not work for everyone, so I'm not suggesting it, but he's named after my dad, so he's Paulie. And it brings me a lot of joy. My father would have liked him. Um, and I think it's interesting in that I I'm sure you and I are aligned. I'm going to make an assumption here that anything that is in the healthy range that does make you feel better, that truly does, you should be open to. And I think, you know, I didn't grow up with PEX.

It was totally foreign to me. Um, but there is, for those of you who've had a pet or ever think about getting a pet, know, and all my kids have pets now. Um, all different kinds of pets. They're all open to the idea of this idea that we can really welcome this into our life. It makes a big difference. Absolutely. I usually I mean, he's small. He's six pounds, so it's easy to to Yeah, he's cute. How old is this little baby? Well, we don't know if he's he's a rescue. So, we're guessing the best answers that we don't know because it's a rescue. I love when no one knows dog he is. We just know that he he does love me the most and there's a big ego thing in that. Like he always picks me and we're just proud of him for wearing the coat today. That's how you know it's cold here. You know it's cold.

I can see in the air back there that it's cold. Do you think that your father would love his namesake? Yes. I think he would like to know. He was always worried that I was going to be so sad without him. I think a lot of times grief is that idea. So I think the what would bring him joy. Um is that and it was weird because when I went to name my kids were like, "Mom, that's really weird." And I'm like, "Yeah, it's really weird." Like it's really weird. Oh, I think it's um you know, so that that's what isn't that that's a good way to sort of sum up today, right? It's really about using whatever techniques your heart, your soul are telling you that can help you during the hardest times. And and I think that's where we're at, right? It's a challenging time to say, "What are you going to do today that's going to make you one inch feel a little bit calmer, more serene, and happier?"

I love it. I love it. that yard site comes around, you got to do a little special special candle with the puff all together and think of each other. We do. Jess, thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it. So, this was fun and I know that's not the word that Oh, no. Yes, it is. Listen, I'm all about having fun during these times. It was so fun. You You provided such great information and you did it through your personality and that that's all I needed. Just right back at