Grief, Widowhood, and Building Community for Those Who've Lost a Partner

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Therapist Voices at Reach Link. My name is Jessica Herurwitz. I manage our provider network. Today I'm so happy to have Dr. Tina Fornwald with us. Dr. Tina Fornwald of Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina. She's going to talk to us a little bit about her her company, her organization. I would love if you would be open to sharing with us a little bit about how the company came to be and then a little bit if you if you could about what it is that you do on a day-to-day basis. It's a really amazing thing that that you're doing and I understand it stemmed from something really special and important for you. So, anything that you're comfortable sharing with us, thank you so much for being here. Jessica, thank you for offering the opportunity to be here. Thank you very much.

I look forward to this conversation. Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina is a registered 501c3 nonprofit. Our corporation is in the state of Virginia and I help people through real stories honor their grief and restore belonging. And it's like what does that mean? But honoring our grief is important. And the way that grief is honored through Widowhood Real Talk with Tina is through three different lanes. The first lane is through social content, social media, because oftent times when we have the death of a loved one, we want to know that we're not alone, but we may not be ready for direct contact. And so the gateway for people connecting with us is often clips or listening to our podcast. And our podcast has the same name, Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina that is on 15 different platforms. blog is on our website and on our YouTube channel.

So the podcast is audio and video. The content from that and on social media platforms covers right now about 27.5 million views across 119 countries. So people connecting with that is the first way usually the gateway that people go this organization exists. The second lane in which we support people is through resources. a regular basis when someone has lost a loved one. People will reach out to us and say, "Can you send my friend a book and we sent a book called I wasn't ready to say goodbye at no cost just because that was actually a book that someone gave to me when my late husband passed and I found it extremely helpful. We send that at no cost. One of our board members, Joey, writes a handwritten note to the person and there's a card in there. If they choose to reach out to us, that's fine.

The other way in which we help with resources, when you go to our website, there are list of different books and different titles depending on what your particular loss is or what you're navigating because grief often times is related to the death of a loved one. But grief comes in many forms when you're reaching out for your health and your health has changed. If you're reaching out and you have lost your job, financial difficulties, a lot of different areas. So there are different topics of books that you can purchase. They are go directly like to Amazon. The other thing is that we partner with different mental health professionals. Everyone cannot afford or does not have the means for mental health or therapy. So we try to partner with therapists or grief coaches that are willing to work with people at a reduced rate or proono if we come across different people that really need help.

The third way in which we support people is through events because we often isolate when we are dealing with grief. So an opportunity to come together to create community gives a healthy way for people to navigate knowing that they are not alone. Those different events come in different forms. We have an annual widows retreat that is the first weekend in December. Last year it was in Atlanta. This year it is in Virginia Beach. And let me say three-story house, indoor swimming, pool, chef, massages. I mean, if I wasn't already coming, I would be going to it already. The other thing that we do is that we help through our program called Children of Widowhood Secret Santa to help people who children who have one or both parents that are deceased to make sure that they receive Christmas gifts. And that is a link on our website.

Another thing that we're actually doing this year is a gayla called Hope Grows Here in North Virginia on May 16th. And the goal of that event is to provide more awareness to our organization and also to raise $50,000 for education fund. And you say, why would a widowhood need education fund? Well, there are so many people on average that do not have life insurance. So, when a spouse passes, you are still left with that two income life, that two income life. How do you do that? If maybe you have been the stay-at-home person or you're now needing to elevate your income, so you may need to go back to school to obtain a better livable wage or maybe the education of your children have been impacted because of that. And so, this education fund would allow us to be able to help other people. We also conduct a butterfly annual butterfly relief ceremony and we are in the process.

We've just been designated land to start a memorial garden. We have uh some local architect engineers that provided three different drawings. We've met with the people that designated us the land. So, we have the official drawings and we'll be looking for people to support that. All of those different things give people a real opportunity to connect and we have a host of other different virtual events. So when people find you, what happens first? So someone reaches out to you or or you know a loved one reaches out to you in support of someone. When people reach you, what's typically I mean I I've visited your website and we're going to link all of this everything that you just shared. We're going to link this in the episode. So, anyone listening, you don't have to write any everything down.

It will be available because this is wonderful. What happens when people first reach you? Are they connected with support? What how do things look once people get started, get affiliated with you? That's a great question. Thank you, Jessica. And it depends on how they connect. One thing I forgot to mention, I do a live on Tik Tok every Monday at 700 p.m. So, there is a live community. So it's like Tik Tok and grief. You would be surprised. The algorithm works really well. So if someone messages me on Tik Tok and they go, "Well, I want to attend the grief support meeting." Forgot to mention we have a men's only grief support meeting the second Thursday of the month and the last Thursday of the month. I hope I host an all-inclusive grief support meeting. So they may want to may be a gentleman looking to connect with the men's only.

So I would connect them with the grief coach, Mr. James Price and he would support them on their monthly meetings. Somebody may be interested in just attending the retreat. I'm not sure when this is going to air, but on March 28th at 10:00 a.m. we are having an interest meeting for the retreat. And the retreat is small and it's intentional because we only want 10 women to attend. Myself and Angela Deion, the um founder of Widows Do Bounceback, we are co-hosting that. and 10 women gives us an opportunity to really lean into all of the women, everyone to be seen and to be supported and just really be able to walk away with some nuggets on who they are now and where they're going in life. Somebody may reach out and say, "I just want to connect with you on TikTok. I'm really not ready to talk."

Someone may be messaging on at 2 o'clock in the morning on a YouTube video that they found. So it depends on the way in which they are connected. I do provide on a limited basis uh grief coaching and that is a one or two person scenario just based on my bandwidth between a podcast, full-time job and other different things. I try not to put myself too thin. It seems like what keeps kind of grabbing my attention is that you are very accommodating and that is, you know, you can't ignore that that you've got all these avenues for people to reach you and it's very clear that those avenues don't discriminate. There is it's any way people people are finding themselves in a situation where they've reached you. A, you're making it possible for them to reach you and more likely for them to, and B, once they do, it seems like there's not a box that they have to be that they have to fit into.

They don't have to feel like, oh, I'm ready to talk, you know, give me a forum. I'm ready to talk to everyone else in a similar situation. It seems like you're really meeting people, not to be cliche, but meeting people where where they are. I'm gathering that is probably something that that you figured out was something important for people to not be pressured to to deal with their grief in a certain way. I would definitely agree with that. That is intentional. One of the widows that I know, she says all grief is the same and all grief is different. One person's need may have both lost their wife, may have both lost a mother, but based on that relationship, based on who they are, their needs are going to be different. Very plain. Just like you could have two people living next door to each other, same house, same number of people, but their tax returns are going to be different.

But we try to often put grief in a box that it does not fit neatly into. So, I try to let that person determine what it is they're in need of, what did they seek us out for, and how the services that we have can support them. That's amazing that I think that's something that is so lacking. I know, you know, we've got all the therapy. We've got therapists who specialize working with grief and loss, but what you're providing is something very meet you where you are. and and you don't have to wait until, you know, I'm not really ready to talk about this, so I better wait to reach out for support. It sounds like that's not even something people have to to go through with your services. I would agree. And that's intentional because you're often trying to figure this out yourself. So, is it great to have a therapist, a psychiatrist, a grief coach?

Absolutely. And if you try to work with a therapist and the first one doesn't work, I ask people to look at it this way. If you want your hair to look right, are you going to stop at the first hairdresser or you going to go, "That didn't work. I'm going to find the hairdresser that does what I want." That is the same thing with your mental health. Unfortunately, we cannot see the per trauma that we're dealing with. So, we may underestimate how much it's impacting us. But if you had your arm that was severed, you could see that pain and everyone around you could see that and they would support that. Sometimes because we just don't want other people to know what's going on, we may come up with I'm okay. And so people don't realize how much we really need support. So being able to be flexible because grief is also an everchanging slope. what you may need today may be different than what you need two years from now.

And so it seems like you really so you're able to help people figure out whatever whatever position they're coming from whatever stage I guess if you will they're in is it sort of coming from a place of wherever they are you can there are different resources that you that you can help connect them with if any of those logistics that of of grief and loss that people are dealing with if it's sort of well I can't reach out because I have to first figure out how to plan a funeral or figure out this financial stuff or, you know, don't worry about me, we'll get to my emotional support later. Is that is that often a way a way that people come to you when they're just not even sure and they've got all this mountain of stuff? Yes. In fact, we have different organizations that we partner with. If you're burdened down by finances and really trying to figure that out, we help Widows with Wings is an organization that supports widows uh working through those financial situations.

The one thing that I really enjoy doing is connecting a widow with another widow with a similar circumstance um in Florida had a young widow that gold star widow from the military and was able to connect her with another widow within 45 minutes that had a young daughter. And I'm not talking about trauma bonding. I'm talking about creating healthy relationships with other people that when you say, "I'm so tired because she's still up and they already know you're tired because your husband's deceased. You're tired because you didn't sign up to be a solo parent and now you are." But if I were to tell that to maybe a sister who's never had that experience, even though they love you and they may be there trying to understand, there's a lot that you have to maybe pause in your words or maybe uh reiterate or explain.

You don't have to do that as much when you're connected with someone else that's similar. Had two widows that both had children graduating from high school, now leaving them home solo parent. And both of them had people saying, "Ooh, you have imp." And they're going, "This is not the right. It's not the version I wanted." But because people around us are often uncomfortable with our grief, they're looking for the yay. And they're like, "We're in this together and you're so not." Exactly. So being able to connect with other people that understand the journey and have had similar experience can be empowering to have that person to text at 1 or 2:00 in the morning or at graduation in those different life events to go, yes, I do have to walk out my grief on a individual basis. No one's going to be there with you 24 hours.

But having that person that you can reach out to can be very powerful. That's I really appreciate that you're clarifying so much that it's not the trauma bonding that that's very much not what this is. It's you know it be very easy to say a group of people who have lost someone but that is what you're doing is so much more in depth than a a group of people who have experienced loss or grief which is still very powerful being in a grief support group. uh being in places where you're able to connect with other people. But I do believe the goal of that is to take those coping skills and now to learn how to operate on a day-to-day basis with life. We still need other people in our tribe to be able to navigate that when we're now in the place where the therapist has told me the same thing over and over.

And now I actually have to pull out the journal where I'm having a grief with. I have to ask for support or say that I'm in need. Those types of things now become the doing of it and walking through the grief. I understand. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. This is very It's so interesting because you were very clearly having the conversations and doing the the work that just like you said people might be uncomfortable with and not know how to approach, but you were very much not in that boat. You're you're the professional. you really clearly have a very solid education and understanding of of what this is way beyond any surface of like like I had mentioned just you know having lost someone. I was going to say the combination the ugly good gift of my late husband that I was with for 32 years having a major heart attack and leaving this world on a mini vacation altered my life forever.

And in fact, as we are recording this particular conversation, tomorrow is the 9th anniversary of the last day that my husband took a breath in this world. And that is not something anyone could have explained to me how devastating it would be. And I want to be clear, I did not, my husband didn't pass and I said, "Oh, let's go make a nonprofit." This was me trying to understand what does life look like now? And in that process of me trying to understand what this version of my life looked like, I reached out to other widows. I attended a widow's retreat. I wanted to understand from people who had traveled this road. How do you do this? I had a therapist for many years and still working and doing that because 9 years later, I still wish he this wasn't a version of life that I have. Have I come to terms with it?

Yes. Because we come and we go in this world. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't devastate you. It doesn't mean that 9 years later, you may not laugh more than you cry. But the ability to be honest with yourself is very important. and just the different things happen now to find myself here supporting other people but from a place that's healthy from a place of I can see what that looks like I will never tell another widow or widowerower I know how you feel because that's inappropriate to me because your relationship with your spouse is very unique and different than what my relationship because we're unique individuals. the one person whose spouse passed and they come to me and I don't want to tell them I know how you feel. I can relate. I can sympathize. I have empathy. I have traveled that road from my experience and that takes the edge off.

And now seeing how I can help them. Sometimes just having one conversation with someone that understands the concept of what you're going through can be a life-changing event. That's really so well said the concept of what you're going through and that I think that makes it very clear how you know for better or worse comfortable you've you've become with this with with all of this that you were not taking away from people's feelings how they might be so unique and different. You were really just there with them. Someone losing their their spouse I imagine could be very different. Yes, for everyone. Maybe you someone didn't have a great relationship with their spouse. Maybe it's about so much more. And I imagine hearing something very blanket is just the opposite of helpful, probably harmful.

I imagine, and thank you for mentioning that. There are people who did not have a great relationship. There are some people who are in a place that they may never want to say out loud, I'm glad I'm done with that relationship. I'm glad we didn't have to have a divorce. I'm glad it ended this way because the divorce would have been messy. There are some people that have been caregivers and and attentively care for their loved ones and they struggle with I'm glad that they are no longer struggling, but what do I do with myself if I'm not caring for them? And being able and it could be 2, three, four years later where they're finally coming to that conclusion and everyone else says, "I thought you were past that. I thought you had moved on and they're just coming to terms with I'm struggling now.

I had to have moved on by now. So, there really is no there's no formula, which which would be lovely, I imagine, for a lot of people if we could just make everything so much easier and fit in a box and just move forward. But I imagine that's not the healing part of all of this. You know, there's there's a a middle ground to it. And my the thing that I have coined is where grief gets stuck the five survival patterns and that is trademark for me and what that looks like. Not saying that we don't cry, not saying that we're still not missing our partner, not saying that we don't have hard days. Saturday I was in the bed most of the day thinking I have to deal with the coming up and I eventually got myself up. But if you feel like you are in a constant place where grief has become stagnated, where you feel like these things you're doing to manage your grief and the five things are self-lame, if you are in a place where you are ruminating, where you are continually blaming yourself for this person's passing, if on top of that you are also saying God or the universe has attacked me and took my love, one from me.

If you are also become so isolated, you go to work, you come home and you have disassociated with the entire world. If you have also become numbing through extremes and people can numb through extremes through drinking, working long hours, sex, legal and unle drugs, and doing all those things cuz they don't want to feel the pain of grief and emotional suppression. I will not allow myself to fall apart because I don't know if I'll be able to get up. I put on the mask that I'm okay around everyone. That is where you can find your grief can get stuck. And that is where those are the five strategies or survival patterns that people learn to do. They learn to isolate. They learn spiritual betrayal, isolation, self-lame, numbing through extremes and emotional suppression. Those become survival patterns.

You may not find that your grief is in a place that you would like it to be. You may find if you're using one or all of those on a heavy basis that you may be going, I feel like it just happened yesterday because your survival patterns are cloaking. They're not healing. And I will provide you with a link to a quiz that someone can take to kind of do a self assessment and see where they are personally to see when I sit back and look at my grief, does it feel like nothing's changed or does it feel like it's the same place that it's been for the last three, four, five years? And am I using these five survival patterns? Are they serving me well? And if you find out that it's not serving you well, there's an opportunity for change. Because even though society will often make women more often than not feel like your spouse died and you should forever be sad, you should forever do not be caught laughing.

You should be shown mourning. I am still alive. I still get to live. I get to celebrate my life because there will be a moment in time that I will no longer exist on this side of the world. So while I am alive, living should look like what it is. Living doesn't mean you have to get remarried. Living may be I always wanted to go roller skating in California on the boardwalk. I'm going to get those roller skates and if I have to drive three days to get to California, I'm going to get there. Maybe I always wanted to go to every national park in the United States. Then I'm going to get out the map and I'm going to go little by little experience the dreams and desires that live within you. Maybe you wanted to learn how to make that cake that you saw on YouTube and now try and do that. Or maybe your loved one, there was a expectation for something you wanted to do and you do that thing and you tell them out loud, I did this.

Live your life. Live it crying. Live it afraid, but live your life because we only get this one that we know of. You've got away with words, Dr. Tina, because I mean truly I I know I'm struggling with some things that I want to say to you because I I'm very grateful as part of the community that helps link people with with support and I want to be so grateful to you, but at the same time, I'm feeling like I don't like that she had to go through this loss and how you got here was what it was. But I guess all that to say just from the whole community, I'm sure you I hope you hear it a lot, but but thank you for what you're doing because I know so many therapists that that might even specialize working with with grief and loss and different ways that that can show up that really might have um an in-depth advanced education and things like that. what you're right what you're what you're doing is very is beyond you're cutting through all of that that discomfort that oh I don't want to bring this up I don't want to upset someone you really you're getting down to business and and really helping people and it took I know your loss to to get there you're doing something amazing and I'm just realizing as a I'm thinking I you know I know this is a very this is a heavy subject just by nature.

And I am thinking, well, I'm getting a little more choked up than I normally would, even as an emotional person. And I'm realizing that it is today my late father's birthday. And I think that it was meant to be that we had you on today. So really, I'm going to be checking out some of your resources and and really, I'm so grateful that there's someone like you out there that really is doing something different. I wonder if I could ask you to share something or two about your mark with us. Um, Mark was from Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania. We met on active duty in the military at Aberdine Proven Ground. One of the things with the children growing up in the house, we used to play this game, who's the funniest. And so at least one day a week, it's you obviously. No. So, uh, Katherine Alexander Mark and I at least one day a week we are, well, we sit we're sitting down in the kitchen and someone says, "Who's the funniest?"

And so, the goal is to tell your story about something that happened that day and to win this invisible prize of who is the funniest. And Catherine Alexander, I would go and we always knew if Mark was going to win, he could never finish the story. He's laughing so hard that we're like, "Can you tell us what it is before?" And and he he has this hyena laugh. He's like, "Sir, we at least want to." And so it's like by the end of the day, it's like, you know, you win. And then by the end of the day when he's no longer in in all this laugh and then we hear the rest of the story and it is funny, but just waiting to hear that was just always hilarious. So he automatically got to be funny. Not even because of the story, but the storytelling probably. Exactly. God, thank you so much for for telling us that.

I thought, dare I dare I ask this, but I just felt like I felt like it would tie things up really nicely because I know, you know, everyone again, we're going to link everything that Dr. Tina has shared with us her websites, resources that that she's mentioned. So, everyone will see on your website that you do pay homage to Mark. Oh, yes. And and that is so beautiful. But I really want people to see that that as well because a huge part of this, I'm sure, is people thinking, well, what do you know? You know, h how do you know? you just like you were saying that you are not saying I know how you feel but you are you are acknowledging the parts that that you do know of someone's grief and loss and absolutely the podcast um this month of March are all dedicated to Mark every Thursday is when our podcast comes out and every Thursday of this month is a conversation with Mark a conversation with the listeners and an overall something different that I've not done before but this is too much inside.

I know for me if I don't let it out that weight is heavy. Yes, the journaling. Yes, the conversations with friends. But one of the things that I realized and you mentioned it briefly there. Sometimes people may forget my husband died. My children's father died. There were months that I just came home and stared at the wall. There were three months I did not go back to work. There was a moment where I was at the end of the hallway screaming into a phone telling one of my siblings, "I love him. This can't be happening." In the middle of Delaware and 3 hours away from our friends in Pennsylvania and 3 hours from our friends in Virginia, this did not happen just because this was a evolution of life. So, as my children are looking to name this memorial garden after their dad, it's because he's no longer here.

I appreciate you saying this so so greatly because it just from what I've gotten to know about you is the the genuine authentic also factual and and moving forward. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like that just that seems to to encapsulate you a little bit that that you're not letting go of this stuff and that you it's it's created that it has. And I'll tell anyone, do the work on yourself. If something becomes of it, it's your life. It is your existence. It's your learning how to give yourself permission to smile. In fact, it reminded me last year our retreat in Atlanta, we had 10 women and different stages of their grief. And one woman was under a year and we were downstairs talking and she said she was going to go to bed. And I was like, I understood. No one followed her. And I knew something times about grief it can be overstimulating. and she went up to her room and when she came down the next day when we had breakfast, she said, "I laid in bed clenching my blanket thinking, they're downstairs laughing.

They're downstairs having a good time. Will I ever get to a place in this experience that I'll be able to laugh and have a good time?" Being able to articulate that released the pressure from her that night. She was dancing, she was laughing, and she was surprised with herself. But being in a space with people understanding and supporting, she can take that dancing home. There were coping skills and community that was created and made during that retreat that will last past that weekend into a lifetime because being able to give herself the permission to laugh allowed her to exercise that. So that is something I she will have that she will have that forever. Yes. And I really want to make sure actually I'm going to make sure that we post this as soon as possible because I would love if Tell me again Dr. 13 of the date of the retreat for this year.

The retreat this year is December 3rd through the 6th in Virginia Beach. But on March 28th at 10:00 a.m., we're having an interest meeting because there's a payment plan. You want to make sure this retreat fits you, what the theme and all those different things. I mean, who doesn't want an indoor swimming pool? Who doesn't want massages? Who doesn't want a chef serving you breakfast, lunch, and dinner? I mean, maybe it's not for you. I don't know. But for other people, it may be. And that though what you're saying about the theme fitting the person that seems like something that you're already doing for people. The theme is a hashtag next you experience. And so what that is related to thank you for that. We are not the same person when our loved one is not here. If your mother, your father, the version of you that was in relationship with them is different now.

You have experienced something that was different than when they were living. So oftent times, what do I do if I'm no longer the wife? If my children are adults, I'm not the caregiver. What does this next version of me living look like in their absence? And do I have to put grief over here and me over here? No, they can both exist, but sometimes we may need somebody to guide us through what the next version of me looks like. How do I hold my grief and still experience my life? Being in this space, the hashtag next you experience with Maya, myself and Dr. T. To be able to do this will give you the building blocks to be able to understand on an individual basis what that looks like for you and also as a collective. But let me be clear, there's karaoke, there's late night pajama. So there's that deep talk, the walking on the beach, the journaling, but so much can be done very casually just at the dinner table.

So it's not just, oh gosh, I'm going to go someplace and just have to cry and talk about I mean, we may, but I mean that staff is serving the food we're not. And I imagine so much of that work or that whatever we want to call it happens over dinner or over finally having fun perhaps for someone and feeling like oh my gosh this this person would have loved this. This person would like to see me like this. This brought up this not great feeling for me and and being in that safe space. Again, not to sound so cliche, but that safe space of you, other professionals, other PE, the camaraderie, I imagine, is so strong. I'm trying to picture it now, and I'm thinking, oh god, is the getting home from something like that is probably a really important stepping stone maybe in in next steps. having had this amazing I imagine experience and then oh gosh I'm home now how do I part of it and so Maya has the bounceback widow tribe has a weekly Thursday call that so you go to this experience you have this next you experience and you're right where do I go from here now that I'm home I have these coping skills I now have this tribe of community that I connect with on a regular basis this wasn't just a one-time thing I'm now knowing that I have been in the company of people that have been widowed maybe one year to 30 years depending on the range of people to come that I know the capacity is within me to be able to live my life differently if I choose that choice is doing it crying doing it saying I want to step out there are some people that may go to this retreat and it may be the first time they've gotten on a plane since their spouse passed But they want something different than what they're experienced now.

And we both know if you keep doing the same thing and expect something different to happen is very unlikely. But doing something different and going that is something I'm looking for. I need to be in that community. Then this is an opportunity to do that. I am obsessed with you for lack of more professional terminology. So mark my words on that. I won't even cut that out of this episode because truly having someone like you in the world is is a a blessing and anything that we can do to connect in the future, I would love to maybe there's something that that we can collaborate on. Okay. I would love to get your name. I know it's out there already. I would love to get it out there even more um in in any of our networks. I don't want to overwhelm you or bombard you at all, but thank you so much for being here.

I wonder if maybe we could even do um a part two of a of a deeper dive into a couple of the things that that we talked about maybe sometime. Okay. But I'm going to make sure that everything is linked here in the episode cuz you gave I mean I'm used to getting a couple resources from from people, but you've provided so many resources. I'm really in love with the book uh aspect. Okay. So, I'm going to be looking into that. Um, well, actually, sorry to bend down. Do you have it there? Show us. So, the book that we give people is I Wasn't Ready to Say Goodbye by Dr. Pamela Blair. I'm not doing this. Okay. I got a good shot of it. And so, this is the book that a a therapist friend gave me when my husband passed. And it was good for me. It gave me answers and put me in a direction that I didn't even realize that I needed because this was uncharted territory.

When my husband died, I thought when we were having children, we went to what to expect when you're expecting. I read that book. When you're getting married, you start reading about marriage or pre-marital counseling. I was like, I don't know what being a widow is going to be. I need someone to help navigate and reading is good, but sometimes reading can be difficult. The audio book exists. And do you mind if I share something else? Please. You'll never get a no from me with that. Please. So, Dr. Pamela Blair that wrote this book actually wrote the forward for my new book that's coming out called The Five Widows Club. I don't know if I'm doing that right. You are. It's perfect. This was me editing the book. And so this book is going to be launched on May 16th at our gayla um in North Virginia.

Hope grows here. And then the virtual launch is scheduled for May 26 online. And this book, The Five Widows Club, is a very organic story of five widows being thrust into a life that they never wanted and their courage, their resilience, and their ability to be able to endure. That book is not one of the widows that I've worked with. I want him to go find that book. It's a combination of four years of podcasting, Tik Tok lives, and just so many things. This is not romanticized grief, but one of the people that read it felt like it was um just so raw and real and gritty that I want other widows to be able to read that book and see themselves and know that they are seen. Well, that's what I have gathered from you in this in this short time we've had together that it is very much about wanting for other people to have or not have even from experiences things that you did or didn't and and that's a gift that you're automatically giving giving everyone. So, thank you so so much Dr. Tina for being here. I am thinking of Mark tomorrow and we all will I would love to have you again. So, please please come back. We will link all of this at the end of the episode. And again, thank you so much.